Monday, March 30, 2020

Emma Watson: "The idea that relationships are supposed to be easy is bullshit"



[Version française]





Emma interviewed Valerie Hudson, author of 'Sex and World Peace', the book she promoted on Instagram at the start of the month.

Teen Vogue report their conversation:



It probably takes a lot for Emma Watson to be starstruck, but that’s how the iconic Little Women and Harry Potter actor says she felt when she spoke to Texas A&M professor and author Valerie Hudson.

The two recently hopped on a call to discuss Hudson’s book, Sex and World Peace, which Watson received a copy of from Gloria Steinem and which she highlighted on her Instagram for International Women’s Day. They ended up having a sprawling conversation on everything from the power of being happily single to Watson’s work with the United Nations Women HeForShe campaign to why men just don’t listen to women enough.

Emma Watson: This is so cool. I’m starstruck!

Valerie Hudson: I sort of feel the same way. One of my daughters is currently reading the Harry Potter series, so every time she finishes a book, we get to see the movie, and of course, you know, you are their heroine.

EW: Ah, I love that. You are such a badass. Your book, it exploded my brain — I think that’s the most accurate way that I can put it! What prompted you to write it?

VH: When I went to graduate school in international affairs, you could have taken my entire coursework and never known there were women on Earth. It was that woman-less.… The idea that national security could have something to do with women would have seemed ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous. And I was a product of that. And it really wasn’t until my eyes began to open, I began to ask questions. I began to read things that had hints.

One of the things you discover very quickly is that if you say, ‘I think national security has something to do with women’, people say, ‘Oh, you know, come back when you’ve got some data; don’t tell us these stories.’ It’s too dismissible without data. That’s why we took the data route.

EW: Well, the data you collected is heart-stopping. Like the fact that ‘the largest risk for poverty in old age is determined by whether or not one has ever given birth to a child.’ When you hear that if women’s caring labor were valued even at minimum wage, it would account for 40% of world production, it’s hard to hear that and remain unmoved. How far do you think we are from achieving a minimum wage or social security benefits for what is now free caring labor?

VH: That’s a brilliant question, and one of the things that I’ve begun to think lately is: Is capitalism itself predicated on all of the life-giving/caregiving work being completely unpaid, being on the backs of women? And if it is, what does that say about the sustainability of capitalism? Those who actually keep everybody alive, give you new generations, take care of the elderly and the sick, get no credit for this.

EW: You write about the Goldberg paradigm, and how in evaluating speech the same words are rated higher coming from men. It’s likely why Harry Potter is not known to be written by Joanne Rowling. If promoting their own success is a helpful strategy for men, but women highlighting their accomplishments is a turn off, how do we get to a more level playing field?

VH: I think one of the things that really caused me to sit up straight and pay attention is when I was hearing results from neuroscience that suggested that women's voices may be processed by men in the same area of the brain that processes background music and noise.... And I thought to myself, Well, that explains about every departmental faculty meeting I’ve ever been in. [laughs]

We have difficulty even accepting women’s expertise and authority. Studies have shown that when a woman joins a largely male body or committee or whatever, that her expertise is discounted by fully 50%. So she may be actually the one with the most expertise in the room, but she’ll be processed by those around her, including women, as having half that.

EW: Is there anything in your research that has come up that you think might help?

VH: I challenge my students. I say, 'You may not be the president of the United States at the moment, but you are interacting with members of the other sex. How are you treating them? Are you listening to them?’ I challenge my male students. I say, ‘When a woman is speaking at a table where you’re at and people are ignoring her, there are things that you can do to bring attention to what she’s saying, and retrain our brains to listen to women.’

I think that’s one of the reasons why the #MeToo movement has given me such hope.... Women were not heard when they said these things before, and now there’s a decent chance they will be.

EW: It’s true, I mean, gosh, it’s so heartening. There’s been a lot of hits recently and it feels good to be moving in the right direction.

VH: Well, you know, men don’t pay attention until the big guys are taken down, and some very big guys have been taken down. I think there’s a reassessment going on.

EW: I agree. One thing I’ve been hearing a lot that I'm curious for your opinion on is that, since #MeToo, a lot of men are telling me that they won’t even take meetings with women on their own, that they have to have somebody else in the room, or that this is going to hurt the women’s movement because men will just be so much less likely to want to work with them.

[both laugh]

VH: I think you’re onto the fact that this is a complete rationalization. What it basically boils down to is saying, unless women are content to live by male rules, we won’t treat them like human beings. I mean, isn’t that the translation of what these people are telling you? I think that’s outrageous.

EW: They say it to me in a way that’s like, ‘Look, I’m just being the realist, I’m just being realistic here.’ And I reply, ‘I don’t think you are and it’s not really good enough! We can do better than that!’

So, I love that you say, ‘Silence is the sturdy ally of gendered microaggression.’ In a climate where some are dismissing microaggressions, tell us why this type of aggression is important to pay attention to.

VH: The reason that the #MeToo movement exploded on the world stage was that you had millions of women, tens of millions of women, who had experienced a reality that they literally could not speak about. They couldn’t speak about what they had experienced. And so, I think that silence is exactly the carpet under which we shove all of these nasty little things, and there can’t be any change when that happens. It’s when you pull back the carpet and you see the cockroaches that you’re like, ‘Oh, time for an exterminator!’

EW: One-hundred percent. I love the word ‘microaggression.’ I’ve been doing therapy for years and think it’s the best thing ever, and we talk about ‘telling the microscopic truth.’

VH: It’s those tiny little moments that each woman knows about and yet there’s no words for these things, or at least there hasn’t been any words before.

EW: There’s so little vocabulary. In Thomas Hardy’s Far From the Madding Crowd, Bathsheba says: ‘It is difficult for a woman to define her feelings in language that is made by men to express theirs’. You know, I’m trying to express myself in a language that just doesn’t have vocabulary for me.

VH: I often think that one of the most revolutionary things that women could do is to begin to develop words for these feelings that they’ve always had.

EW: I did an interview with Vogue magazine a couple of months ago, and I talked about how, in the run up to my 30s, [I felt] this incredible, sudden anxiety and pressure that I had to be married or have a baby or moving into a house, and there was no word for this kind of subliminal messaging and anxiety and pressure that I felt building up, but I couldn’t really name, and so I used the word ‘self-partnered.’ For me it wasn’t so much about coining a word; it was more that I needed to create a definition for something that I didn’t feel there was language for. And it was really interesting because it really riled some people up! It was less for me about the word but more about what it meant — just this idea that we need to reclaim language and space in order to express ourselves because sometimes it’s really not there.

It's fascinating to me that the origin story of marriage centers around ownership and power — safeguarding bloodlines, establishing property and land rights, creating tactical alliances to increase circles of influence and establish new trading links, et cetera.

VH: In a weird way, marriage was born out of slavery. The idea that you needed to control the reproductive capabilities of these women, just as you would control cattle and you would control land, and you would keep those things in your male-bonded kin group. We still have laws in most countries, many countries, that say upon divorce the children go with the husband's family. ...And I think one of the actual really important things that modernity did was to suggest that this contractual nature of marriage was not the only kind of marriage to have, and that there was in fact a different template based on equal partnership, equal respect, equal consideration that could be a far more healthy, prosperous, and happy type of relationship than you’ve seen previously.

EW: I feel that relationships that don’t necessarily follow traditional models do require more communication and consent. It requires an actual conversation and agreement about the delegation of tasks and labor and responsibilities that maybe you don’t feel that you need to have or should have if you follow those traditional stereotypes.… The idea that relationships are supposed to be easy and it’s all supposed to be implicitly understood, and you’re just meant to get each other, it’s bullsh*t! It’s impossible!

A lot of the healthiest relationships I’ve seen have been between same-sex couples because, I think, they have to sit down and agree [on] things. They agree [on] things between them as opposed to [accepting] certain sets of assumptions and expectations that are made. I’ve also kind of become slightly fascinated by kink culture because they are the best communicators ever. They know all about consent. They [understand] that stuff because they really have to get it — but we could all use those models; they’re actually really helpful models.

Anyway, I truly am geeking out. I’m so happy I got to meet you. Your book was one of those books that made me go, ‘Holy sh*t!’ So, thank you for writing it and for all of your research and hard work.

VH: Thank you for being an ambassador that publicizes this message, because this is, I think, the critical message of our time. We have got to get it together. Men and women have got to make peace between each other so that our world has a future.

Teen Vogue editor’s note: This conversation was condensed and lightly edited.





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15 comments:

Anonymous said...

I don't want to go in to politics right now , but one thing is defienietly correct right here. After metoo movment, men won’t take meetings with women on their own, that they have to have somebody else in the room. They both laughed there, but this is reality. In big companies they avoid this kind of situations, and I cannot stay after hours just with a men, there has to be another woman, with me there, What is more, my colleagues are mostly men, so now after-work socializing doesn't exist.

Leviathan's Phone said...

I'm always impressed with Emma's insight and skill as an interviewer.

Anonymous said...

God i wish she'd wisen up and smell the BS...
Some of the stuff in this almost feels like willful ignorance, like men not taking meetings alone with women, is she aware of the startling number of false reports that ruin peoples lives, completely believed without question simply because the accuser was a woman?
And the same sex marriage stuff... "healthiest relationships", yeah one look at the domestic abuse rates between same sex partners as compared to hetero ones really shows that..

jesus christ, if she ever wakes up from this insane fever dream of ignorance coupled with feminism (in some aspects, radical feminism), i think it might break her...

If you choose to delete this Eden, that's fine, i just needed to voice my opinion/vent a bit, after reading this insane malarky.

Thaïs said...

I love that last quote in blod, when Emma speaks last (the 2 first paragraphs out of the 3 actually).

Thaïs said...

Anonymous said "one thing is defienietly correct right here. After metoo movment, men won’t take meetings with women on their own"

> If that what we have to do to protect all those women that were harassed, I feel it's a very small burden for the overall safety of people.

As for the after hours : how bout you invite everyone to a social event? The company has to make rules to ensure safety in the workplace, but if you want to have more light hearted moments outside of work it's your right too.

Anonymous said...

Thaïs said...

Anonymous said "one thing is defienietly correct right here. After metoo movment, men won’t take meetings with women on their own"

It was actualy what Emma said in question. And as I said in my case, metoo movement make my work more difficult and more important less fun. In my work place there are only 4 women (included me) and 43 men. For example, we had a week delegation and unfortunetly any other women cannot go, so apparently I couldn't go with 4 other men, although I insisted it was not a problem. No, they had to go without me. I was credited in the project, I was even paid the same amout of money despite of staying home. But it wasn't what I wanted. In some degree I agree with Anon at 4:23 AM, Emma is ignorant here. I like her very much, I have a soft spot for HP, but with all due respect, she didnt't work a single day in her live, besides movie sets, and she doesn't know how everyday work in companies looks like.

Anonymous said...

"God i wish she'd wisen up and smell the BS...
Some of the stuff in this almost feels like willful ignorance, like men not taking meetings alone with women, is she aware of the startling number of false reports that ruin peoples lives, completely believed without question simply because the accuser was a woman?
And the same sex marriage stuff... "healthiest relationships", yeah one look at the domestic abuse rates between same sex partners as compared to hetero ones really shows that..

jesus christ, if she ever wakes up from this insane fever dream of ignorance coupled with feminism (in some aspects, radical feminism), i think it might break her...

If you choose to delete this Eden, that's fine, i just needed to voice my opinion/vent a bit, after reading this insane malarky."


Im glad Eden allowed this as i was concerned she wouldnt allow any criticisms. Hopefully my comment will be allowed as well.

Ive been a long time fan of hers both from her acting and activism standpoint but i do feel a little concerned that she is getting so brainwashed by some of it. While i understand fully that more times than not false claims against men can be in the minority its also in the minority that men would say they feel uncomfortable being alone with women.

So she is guilty here of simply being over dramatic by the few who would make that claim i believe. And i had to laugh as well at the "same sex couples" seem to be better in relationships. As someone who has a lot of gay and lesbian friends they sometimes seem WORSE than myself or my wife. Im not sure where Emma is getting that and im positive it isnt backed up by any kind of data.

Same sex couples that i know go through all the same arguments and infidelity issues that straight people do. So i think her comment in that area is misguided and probably just pandering to the gay movement really.

Sad thing is im starting to get more and more disenfranchised with her not only because i think she is starting to go over the deep end with the feminism stuff but the fact she hardly acts anymore i just cant find any common ground with her as a fan anymore. Sucks, but it is what it is i guess.

Coolio said...

She was just commenting and sharing a bit of a laugh at how some men don't take meetings with women because they're scared something bad might come out of it, which is absolutely ridiculous, like are men so scared or paranoid that women might make something out of thin air? Do you guys know the actual numbers of how many women DO NOT report actual assaults and harassments? You guys are actually so out of touch.

As for the same-sex comment, do you guys have any good reading comprehension? She CLEARLY says that comment based on the relationships SHE HAS SEEN! Eden I don't know how you have the patience with some of these guys with the same regurgitated nonsense they bring about with any progressive argument Emma brings forth.

The reason some of the comments get deleted is because none of you guys actively understand her thoughts and where she's coming from. I didn't even realize one could get mad at her for saying that and lo and behold, here we are for the umpteenth time, some random male on the Emma Watson updates forum not getting feminism and getting mad for no reason. All you guys want is for her to dress up sexy again like she did before and make movies. What if she just doesn't want to do that right now? Get over yourselves.

Sorry for my own rant. Literally these sentiments apply to nearly every negative comment regarding Emma's activism, I welcome critiques of her acting, other choices etc but at least make them make sense.

Anonymous said...

"She was just commenting and sharing a bit of a laugh at how some men don't take meetings with women because they're scared something bad might come out of it, which is absolutely ridiculous, like are men so scared or paranoid that women might make something out of thin air?"

Perception/reality.
Are women likely to make up claims of sexual assault/improper behaviour?
Very, very rarely, but if the perception/fear is there, then yes some men may overreact and introduce 'safeguarding' options.

People are not necessarily rational beings.

Currently worldwide roughly the same number of people are dying daily of covid-19 as those in car accidents. Governments are putting huge resources into lowering the death toll related to coronavirus, car accident deaths barely register a mention.

This us in no way to downplay the fight against covid-19, but merely to illustrate that perception/fear can affect people's behaviour/thinking.

Ask the question of people as to which they are more scared of/most likely to die from, and I think the answer would be clear, yet the facts are there is little difference.

When people are confronted with a new reality (eg metoo/covid-19)it can take time for people to develop suitable,sensible behaviours.



Gacek870 said...

To Coolio

So you basicly said, that we can not criticise Emma activism and her view on different topics. I on the other hand, understand some people think she should stick to acting and entertainment not to pursuit political agendas and this people have a right to voice their opinion. I personaly think that this is not something they should laugh in this interview about and Emma shouldn't be treated like authority in this area, cause she's not someone who have to go to everyday job from 9 to 5. In the end I hope you are all save and healthy, especially you Eden. Stay strong.

Anonymous said...

So is Emma coming out as poly/non monogamous in this interview? We talked about this before because her relationships clearly were overlapping and often short in nature. The last part of her seemed important for her to put out there about non conventional relationships and kink.

Anonymous said...

So... Y'all are getting mad at Emma for *checks list* having a opinion. Whether you agree with it or not, that in itself is a opinion. She never said once in this interview that what she's said should be taken as fact. Valarie and Emma only stated their opinions from they've experienced. Which I'd at least hope that we can all agree is not the for everybody.
*Wishing that everybody has a good day. Stay safe and as healthy as you can.

Thaïs said...

Emma posted on her insta about this article, and gives a VERY insightful comment about it.

Anonymous said...

" Whether you agree with it or not, that in itself is a opinion."

Yes, we gave our own opinions as well because that is what discussions are all about.

TPSVR said...

That's why she said in the Vogue interview she is happy to be single.