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Full transcript below. Took me two days so please credit the blog if you use it.
(Preview) Emma: I realized have the career and the life that looks like the dream, but are you really happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? And have to admit to myself that I wasn't was one of the scariest things I've ever had to do.
(Introduction)
Jay Shetty: Emma, welcome to On Purpose. I'm so grateful that you're here and you know you've kind of been out of the public eye for a while now.
Emma: Yes.
Jay: And don't do that many interviews. I've watched the interviews you have done even before we planned to do this. And I wanted to ask from an intention point almost of why now? Why today? Why here?
Emma: I think I mentioned but I read your book because my dear friend Nupur told me that I should and every now and again I would see you come up on my feed. I don't spend much time on Instagram anymore, but when I did, I just felt like you were having a different conversation. And it's not that I have stopped doing interviews because I want to hide myself away. I think it's because I wanted to be able to have a certain type of conversation that I didn't seem able to find a space for. And so I called Nupur and said, "I think I just reached out to Jay to see if you would let me come and do his podcast on Monday." And she was like, "I've been waiting for this. I wondered when you would do this." I was like, "How did you know I was going to do it?" She's like, "I don't know. I just felt like this was coming." So here I am. And you said yes and the timing worked. I contacted you last week and it's Monday and so…
Jay: Well, that means the world to me. Truly. I'm so grateful for that because the few interactions and conversations we've had since then and you've sent me a few things to read over whether it's journals or reflections and honestly I think I just said it to you a few moments ago and I mean it even if we weren't having this conversation today and you just sent me those things to reflect on myself that would have already been a gift and so the opportunity to actually sit with you and to talk about these things and have the space to have a conversation that you feel you haven't had before means the world to me and so thank you for trusting me and it's I look forward to getting to know you so much better. But let's dive in. I wanted to start by asking you like you said something there that was really beautiful because you stopped for a moment then you said it's easier to be honest and I was wanted to understand what that meant to you and how that feels.
Emma: Such a big part of my job was trying to think three steps ahead of how everything that I would say could negatively impact the film that I was trying to do justice to and do service to and make sure that people understood what the director had intended and I felt this enormous sense of responsibility all the time to honor so many people's work that put together something like a film or you know even to some degree… I just did a fragrance with Prada and it's the first perfume bottle that you can like refill and I don't know I take my job seriously I guess and so interviews to me felt a lot like chess and it required so much energy and I think what's nice about the way that I'm showing up today is I'm just showing up for myself and for once. I actually am not here to um speak on behalf of anyone else or anything else other than myself, which is unusual.
Jay: Yeah. I think it's such a fascinating thing because as a viewer, even before I got closer to the industry, as a viewer, everything's made to feel in traditional media so easy and it has levity and it feels like you're getting someone's real personality and then you realize that you are… There's definitely reality to it and truth to it but at the same time, naturally, it's work. And there's a job. And I think it's not as… And you can shed more light on this. I don't think it's always as insidious or as dark as people may think it is, but there's just it's a job and it's work and there's results that matter, right?
Emma: Yeah, 100%. And I think within those contexts, everyone is trying to be as authentic as they humanly can be. But there's something about- I think it's why I mentioned earlier about why I felt like this was a good space is there's something inherently written into certain types of forms of media which is that it doesn't matter what intention or or how authentically you want to show up the form, like, somehow doesn't allow it to some degree and I've become obsessed with this recently. I've been looking at okay what is written into the form of something like Twitter or Instagram or Tik Tok or a podcast versus or a photograph versus a film versus a piece of writing and it's really interesting to see what a different medium or different form allows or doesn't allow or actually creates or encourages. I've never done a podcast before, but what I love about it is the intimacy of it. It's like I feel like people listen to podcasts when they're like- I certainly do anyway like first thing in the morning when I'm taking my shower or I'm going on my walk or I'm making my breakfast. It's really like personal intimate time and I think the long form version of these kinds of conversations allows for such a different kind of discussion that I don't think was possible before.
Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. I was going to ask you actually because I want everyone to get up to date with where you are now. Like, what does your day-to-day life look like? You just said like I wake up and I shower and I go on a walk. Like, what does your day-to-day life look like right now? And what's it made of and what are the things that you love and look forward to?
Emma: I recently started riding a bicycle and yes, I started riding a bicycle before my driving ban, but now it's particularly fortuitous that I also ride a bicycle for that reason. But-
Jay: I thought that was mainstream news.
Emma: Oh my god. I was getting phone calls like "it's on the BBC. It's on international worldwide news." I was like my shame is everywhere. This is- I mean what I say it's I don't know. I think in a funny way what the sweetest result of it was getting so many messages from being people being like happened to me too. I feel you. This is awful. It sucks. Which was kind of nice in a way but um
Jay: Do you need a lift?
Emma: Yeah totally. Do you need a lift? It's like actually yes. But I think again it's funny like I went from- when you work on movies I don't know if people know this but like they literally will not insure you to drive yourself to work. I've asked so many times.
Jay: You have to be driven.
Emma: You have to be driven. It's like not a choice. And especially because they need you there, you know, down to the minute basically depending on what they have going on. And so I went from basically only driving myself on weekends or during holiday to then when I became a student driving myself all the time and yeah I did not have the experience or skills clearly which I now will and do. But I think again this was one of these like awkward transitions I made from kind of living this like very very structured life to living a life where I was like okay I guess I'm going to get myself to this place and I'm going to like do this thing that I've basically not done since I was 10 years old. So, it's been a discovery and a journey that's been um yeah, I guess humbling because on a movie set, I'm able to do all of these like extremely complex things, stunt, sing, dance, like do this thing, do that, whatever. And I'm like, "Yep, don't worry about it, guys. No worries. I've got you." And then I get home and I'm like, "Okay, Emma, you seem unable to remember keys. your money, to like keep yourself at 30 mph in a 30 speed limit. Like you don't seem able to do some pretty like basic life things. And it was definitely kind of- Yeah, I had days where I just wanted to turn around to people and be like, "I used to be good at things. Okay. I used to be really good at things. And I know it doesn't look like that right now, but I can do things normally." Um, so yeah, it's been humbling.
Jay: I feel I feel like all of us I feel like all of us can relate to that though.
Emma: Really?
Jay: Because doesn't everyone forget their keys, their wallet, doesn't know where things are? Like these are like- And by the way, I think I was three points away from losing my license before I moved to the States.
Emma: Thank you for that confession. I appreciate that so much.
Jay: Because I've been in the States now for 9 years and I think it happened just- but then all the
points get wiped off.
Emma: Wow.
Jay: And I think I'm now back to six points. I spend two months in London a year.
Emma: Okay this makes me feel much better.
Jay: Every time I go back, I seem to-
Emma: Oh, Wow.
Jay: So, I'm confessing too.
Emma: Okay, thank you
Jay: But I haven't lost it.
Emma: A lot of people actually a lot of people have like taken it upon themselves to come and confess to me, which I found like very very endearing and like really really appreciate it. But no, I think, you know, I think something I've been realizing is we most of us live in a state of like I'm just trying to kind of figure it out and keep it together. And the only thing that is different between us is people's willingness to be honest about that. The degree to which they can admit to actually I'm just like scrabbling around, trying to keep the pieces together, versus "oh yeah I know everything's amazing and everything's incredible and I'm having the best day ever and aren't you?" And you know, so I do love the people who who are just willing to be like, "Yeah, it's not going so well today." I'm like, "Great, amazing. What a good starting point." Like I don't know, failure as a starting point feels like- I feel like attempting things is so compelling. And of course success is wonderful, but I love to see people who are like, "I'm really bad at this, but I'm going to try." like I love you. That's everything to me. Everything.
Jay: And that seems to be becoming harder and harder now. Like, that desire to attempt something that you might not be good at because it's exposed or because everyone will see it or because everyone will hear about it. Talking about attempting things. I mean, you're currently studying, right? You're learning.
Emma: Yes. Well, two things I want to say. There is I think in a way I was sort of- I mean I'm someone who's always cared about vulnerability and authenticity, but I think I was also forced into it to a degree that maybe even I wasn't ready for and that like I just started so young that like I had to learn in public. I had to make mistakes in public and say, "Oh, okay. Now I've learned this." And I had to be willing to go back and be like, hm, like there was some gaps here. And here's what I
know now. And I think people's- I agree with you. I think it's becoming increasingly difficult to learn in public and continuing to learn. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I I have gone back to school and why I continue to do it is because I want to make sure that I have things to say that are worth saying. And I think you can only do that if you take a minute sometimes and listen to some people who aren't you, you know, like not just the sound of my own my own wonderful voice. Um, so yeah, it's been it's been great. And I think also I needed to- I wanted to be inspired. I think my favorite piece has been being around young people who still believe that the world is malleable and things are changeable and that like anything can be done is um such important energy. There's so much dystopian fiction at the moment and dystopian movies
Jay: So dark.
Emma: It's so dark and I'm just like "what happened to thinking about the utopia? What happened to like planning for the best case scenario?" like where did we lose vision, excitement, imagination, possibility, so I think it's been wonderful to be around young people and just to sit there and listen.
Do you ever- I mean you clearly read so much do you have to take yourself away to do it in order to be able to do it, do you have to cordon off time, like how are you still managing to study and learn because that seems like it's important to you.
Jay: Yeah. You reminded me as you were talking of one of my spiritual teachers, my monk teacher, who always said to me, if you want to move three steps forward, you have to go three steps deep first.
Emma: Whoa.
Jay: And what I found often in my life is I'm trying to go four steps forward and I haven't yet gone four steps deep. And so it's almost like I mean this is probably a terrible analogy, but maybe thinking of the movie The Substance. I don't know if you watched it.
Emma: No, I didn't see it.
Jay: Okay, fine. Okay. Terrible. Let's let's remove-
Emma: No, no, no.
Jay: No, no,no. Let's forget about it.
Emma: Okay.
Jay: But it's that idea of like every extra step you take when you haven't learned and you haven't experimented and you haven't attempted is taking away from your ability to move forward.
Emma: Wow.
Jay: And sometimes I think when we feel stuck or when we think things are not moving or they're not progressing. It may be a sign to say well pause and go deeper for a second or pause and go inward for a second. And so to me, hearing that from you, I find that and I definitely fail at this all the time. There are so many times I'm trying to push more forward than I've gone deep. And so whenever I notice that myself and I notice that I'm just kind of trying everything and nothing is working, it's actually just the universe and self saying to me, go read, go study. And so I found that I've had to really carve out time to make time to do what I love, which is to read and study. But I found that I'm someone who doesn't love 30 minutes a day. I'm not that kind of a reader. I'm someone who needs to read for 3 or 4 hours, if not more. And so I found that carving out deep immersive time is more important to me than this kind of mechanical 30 40 minutes a day, which is great for you if that works for you as a habit. It doesn't for me I'm a bit of an extremist.
Emma: Me too
Jay: And I just need to spend a whole weekend reading as opposed to I don't need to read every day. So I'll try and I try once a month on a weekend to just absorb into a subject that I love and I'll take a course, I'll go to a class, I'll watch a TED talk online, I'll read as many books as I can and I try and immerse myself that way. What's your learning style?
Emma: I'm the same as you. And actually someone who I really respect and ask for advice often and ask for feedback on myself. He said to me, "Emma, I think if you did 90% of what you wanted to do at 50% of the speed, you would get so much more, like, life would be so much better." And I was like, "Wow, 50% of the speed and only 90% of what I want to do." And he was like, "I think that's the minimum to be honest." And I was like, wow. But I think, yeah, what you said resonates. I think I often have to remind myself that it's not about speedily getting somewhere. It's just not the point. Things are supposed to happen with a certain timing. And so yeah, resonates. And to your point, I cannot just sit for 30 minutes and look at something. I need kind of like a week on holiday and then I'll start to deeply get into something and I need quiet and I hyperfocus and that's when I you know I love it but I can't do little itty bitty bits. It drives me nuts.
Jay: It just doesn't work for me.
Emma: It doesn't work. So… resonates.
Jay: You said that you felt that you had to learn in public and then you made mistakes. Like what were mistakes that felt like mistakes then that made you feel like "oh gosh I made that mistake in public but I was 10 years old" or whatever it was and now you look back and you think "oh you know I was able to process it."
Emma: Yeah. I think the big one was feminism and intersectional feminism and frankly it just like wasn't taught. You know, I had to really seek out and I'm really grateful actually that I was in many ways quite lovingly called in as opposed to- I mean some of it was not, but I think that was definitely a moment where I had to say okay I'm talking about something really big and important and it's actually really important to sit this in some context which I have not done and I think that was a big moment. I think it was more there was an omission, there was things that were missing as opposed to I had said something wrong. I just needed I just needed to fill in more gaps. And so um that was when I started or that was actually in the middle- I had a feminist book club called Our Shared Shelf. And so that was part of those conversations. But it was a good moment for me to learn that feeling uncomfortable sometimes is good. I think we have an alarm system that goes off which is like I'm uncomfortable, this feels uncomfortable, so something bad must be happening and I must leave as soon as possible. And actually I think that was when I started to learn, "oh actually me being uncomfortable in a space um might be a good sign because it might mean I'm about to learn something." And I want to attribute this that was
Marai Larasi who who helped me understand that and was a very very valuable teaching. So now when I'm in a space and listening to things and I feel uncomfortable I don't think it means I need to bolt or something bad's happening.
Jay: Yeah.
Emma: Maybe something really good is about to happen. Yeah.
Jay: Yeah. And I feel like that goes back to what we started with this idea of attempting means discomfort and attempting means incomplete.
Emma: Yeah.
Jay: In that and I love I love that point you made that actually whenever we're sharing anything it's not that it's not true. It's that it's not complete.
Emma: Yes.
Jay: And mostly when we see people say things or share ideas, it's very rare to have anyone ever share a complete idea because that means they would have had to think about it from every single vantage point.
Emma: Yeah.
Jay: Which is not even humanly possible.
Emma: It's not possible. It's not possible. And I think Adrienne Maree Brown, I don't know if you've ever had, she wrote an amazing book which is one of her more recent ones which is called Loving Corrections (affiliated link). And she speaks to kind of exactly this, which is there's kind of this like ire that we see online when people don't attribute something perfectly to someone else or they're missing something and it's like, isn't the whole point of this that we're in conversation? And if it's the right person, you can see that a good intention is there, then maybe we can kind of do it in a way that doesn't need to be- I mean obviously there's important time and place for holding people accountable. But maybe, I don't know, attributing like great we're all going to help each other kind of pad this out fill this out. Yeah.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah. It's a hard- I think that's the hard part. It's like how do you differentiate between holding someone accountable and giving them grace? And that's a really interesting discussion in and of itself. And I don't think I have the answer or know exactly what it is, but I feel like that's a thought exercise as humans that if we were to do it would actually, I don't know. What's your take?
Emma: Maybe the grace is attributing good intention and the accountability is the courage it takes to actually say something to someone. Because it's such a scary thing to do and it often requires a lot of emotional labor and I find this a lot as a woman when I'm- especially as a woman who's dating, that like I will just be like "is it worth me explaining, is it worth me explaining this thing or should I just not take the time to do this" because sometimes I will really- I care about doing it kindly and compassionately. And it's very rare for me to attribute bad intent to anyone, but you know, sometimes it does fall on deaf ears and you're like that text message took me like 40 minutes like to word perfectly or that voice note or whatever and you're like "is this making a difference? Like am I getting through to any- is transformative justice real? Like is this is this label worth it?" But I think I don't have a perfect answer. I haven't lived through enough of it to know. I guess I've just reached a point where it's like I'd rather die trying. I'd rather die having tried. And maybe some small piece of it, even if it's not now, even if it's at some future point, like something I've said just like goes, "Oh, something at the back of my mind here, someone says something to me, then you know, maybe it's worth it."
[COMING UP]
Jay: When you think about little Emma, like what was a childhood memory that you have, a core memory that you have that you feel has defined who you are today somewhat?
Emma: I think I won't share the specific memory cuz it's so personal, but I think I've always felt other people's pain very intensely. Until maybe recently, I did not know how to give myself grace and navigate- seeing my sensitivity as a strength and knowing that it's like my gift, but it also means I have to care for it in specific ways. When you are given gifts, there's often- kind of have to compensate in some other ways. And in the same way that like my position in life and fame has given me this extraordinary power, it's also given me a lot of responsibility. And these things often have these kind of- I don't know when or why it started, but I think I've always, whoever it was that was suffering in the room, I was always the most aware of them. And I think that has formed a lot of why I could act. It was almost like I was kind of sucking all of this in and then I needed to let it out somewhere or unleash it somewhere. And I remember when my parents saw me on stage for the first time afterwards, they were just like, "Where did that come from? You don't have any of these experiences." I recorded a song for my 12th birthday. My mom bought me a day in a recording studio. And I sing Natalie Imbruglia's "Torn". Like I've had my heart broken 50,000 times, you know? Like I've been married and divorced and whatever. And I'm 12 and I've never had a boyfriend and I don't know anything about love.
Jay: Have you ever thought about where it came from?
Emma: I would imagine, I can't say for sure. I would imagine that my family structure has not been a traditional family structure. And that feeling of knowing that I'm from a situation where we just don't quite fit the kind of nuclear family mold. And I think coming back from France and trying to figure out how to sort of integrate and being the eldest and having my younger brother and having my mom and like trying to sort of be some sort of glue or holding together for everyone's feelings. I'm pretty sure that's probably where it started. And then I guess just being aware of other people who might feel the way I did, which is like, who else in here doesn't feel like they quite fit?
Jay: I've always found that it took me a while to recognize, but when I did, it was so helpful that a lot of what I do today is because I mediated my parents' marriage growing up. And so I developed all these skills of listening and empathy and grace and compassion because I was doing it for two people that I loved. And I see it as a strength and it comes with it comes with certain things for sure, it comes- you're
absolutely right but at the same time I've always seen it as a strength and it's something that has served me well in my marriage it's served me well in my relationships and at the same time it has certain consequences that make you different or make you process things differently and so and I remember one thing you shared with me that I was reading it, you said, "I used to spend my weekdays with mom and my weekends with dad." And you said it almost felt like you were changing costumes sometimes.
Emma: Yes.
Jay: And they're all like this two lives kind of thing.
Emma: Yes. Yes.
Jay: And and I feel that's so relatable. I feel like so many people can relate to that. Whether their family was more traditional or wasn't, I think every child has had this feeling of not fitting in quite and not knowing which life they're meant to lead and that feels like it's kind of played into yours.
Emma: Yes, for sure. I think it's also why I've had to really navigate my relationship towards art and acting because I'm pretty sure that I was using acting as a way of escaping how painful- um my parents- like it wasn't just the divorce. It was just like the continuing situation of living between two different houses and two different lives and two different sets of values. And as a child, like, being aware of, like, hm we don't quite have the support we need here for this, like, this is not quite, we're not quite like- and I think it does it makes you, it made me a slightly serious child because I had that consciousness and then when I would go and spend the weekend with my dad, it was like a very different set of rules, very different situation and so you do, you kind of like- and I think everyone can relate to this to an extent that it's not that you are- be like wanting to become different people but it's you there are different expectations of you in different places that you understand that you need to fill and so I think some of that split then became- I was like "okay, wow". You know my parents have very different views on different things. And the hard part of that was that no one gave me any easy answers. It meant I had to form all of my own opinions myself because there was no consensus. And it made me a critical thinker for sure because- and so that was amazing and also really, like, gosh, okay, I need to decide what I think is important in life and what my opinions are. No one's handing me this. Yeah. Maybe it also made me aware of not wanting to be so split as well and why it's been important to me to try to remain whole. In all the different circumstances of my life and ask myself questions about how I can do that best because I think I experienced as a child that the split is painful. Like if you're living a reality one way but presenting something else, those are the moments when you can really feel torn apart. And I recognized that and I didn't want that to be my life. I didn't want pretend to be my real life.
Jay: Yeah. I mean that's so- I can so relate to you personally on the idea of not having a blueprint and having to create my own. And how often when you don't have a blueprint, you feel you have two choices. And that's where you feel torn. Whereas when you look at it as a whole and go, okay, well now I get to craft my own narrative from this and I may take a few pieces from here and a few pieces from here and I'm going to form my own puzzle. But I don't have to choose a path. It's really beautiful when you do it, but it's really hard in the beginning because it just feels like there are two parts. And I want to talk about how much that impacted, you know, your work. And you said there, you said that one thing you mentioned that really stood out to me was you felt that acting was in some way escaping that kind of which version do I have to be? And I think so much of what we do for work or so much of what we pursue as humans is based on something we're trying to build, create, maybe escape from, maybe to reveal something. And I think we haven't often looked at work that way. Like sometimes we choose a career because we know it will make our parents happy. And so we're living a pattern or sometimes you choose something because it breaks the pattern that you were growing up in. And it's fascinating to me to look at that. For you, you were acting in school plays since you were a a young girl. And was acting always something you were going to do, or did do you feel like it was this cross-section of what was happening in your personal life that actually made that feel like the direction you would choose?
Emma: I think it's so interesting that you said those words, reveal and escape, that they're kind of the same thing because I think that- it all started with a poem. I did a poetry competition when I was nine called the Daisy Pratt poetry competition. And I'm actually naturally quite a shy person. And so actually
for me to stand up in front of people feels like an out-of-body experience. Like there's so much adrenaline coursing through my veins that it does feel like a moment outside of time. And I remember the exhilaration of living the kind of ups and downs of this poem. And maybe because there wasn't space to have conversations or express myself at that time in the way that I needed to. I did it through performance. And I also did it as a way of getting to feel free for a moment of what I was- like the discomfort of that time of not quite knowing who I was or how to be in the world. And as I've become more healed and whole and more comfortable being myself, it's been interesting to ask myself, do you still need acting? do you still need to act? Like why what are you doing that for? And like the kind of it used to feel like almost like a compulsion that I needed to do it. And what's really interesting now is I don't feel quite that kind of urgency of needing to do it. And I wonder if it's because actually I have spaces where I can now take some of those feelings and talk about some of the things I don't think I had space to voice without doing it on camera in front of thousands of people. Yeah.
Jay: Yeah. Which is scary in its own way, right? It's like it's easy to think, "Oh, that makes sense." But then it's like, well, no, it's really challenging to do that second part. Even if it makes sense rationally or logically. And was that what in 2019 when you kind of pulled away, was your reason I want to heal and work on myself or was it actually I don't feel a compulsion anymore? Like was that the inflection point of doing some self work or was that the inflection point of need to pause?
Emma: I realized I was drawing on painful stuff in my life that I was actually healing and I didn't want to keep revisiting in order to do some of the more intense, scarier, sadder things that I had to do. I realized- I remember by Beth's deathbed, by her graveside when we shot those films. Like normally there are like these painful memories that I would use for those moments. And I realized I was like I don't know if this is super great for me actually to keep revisiting these or if I want to use these as my tools and I don't think that means I'll never come back to acting. I think it just meant I was like I wonder if there's a different way to do this. I think the second thing was, to be really honest, I was coming to those sets with an expectation that I think I had developed on Harry Potter, which was that we were- the people I worked with were going to be my family and that we were going to be lifelong friends. I came to work looking for friendship and that was a very painful experience for me outside of Harry Potter and in Hollywood. Like bone-breakingly painful. Because most people don't come to those environments looking for friendships. They're looking for "this is my chance. This is my role. This is what I want out of it. I'm focused. This is my job. This is my career. Like let's go." And I was not of
that mindset. And so I found the rejection really painful.
Jay: The friendship rejection.
Emma: Yeah. Of like I was like- I think it's so unusual to make a set of films for 12 years and we were a community. Like we really were. And so I took that as an expectation into my other workplaces and I just got my ass kicked. I really did.
Jay: Was it competition? Was it envy? Was it just hierarchy? Was it…
Emma: I think it was a combination. It was a molotov cocktail of all of the above. As we mentioned earlier, I'm just not thick skinned. Maybe I just wasn't built for those kinds of highly competitive environments. (starts crying) It Yeah, it broke me. Yeah. But in a way, I'm proud that it did because I guess that means I have something left to break. I have a heart left to break. So, it was a hard learning, but I think there's something that I'm proud of in a way that there were certain things I couldn't withstand. I'd much rather keep my humanity.
Jay: I think there might be a tissue.
Emma: I'm managing to like keep it inside.
Jay: If you need it, there is a tissue.
Emma: That's really-
Jay: No, but I really appreciate you saying that and I mean it's so powerful to hear how you've processed it. Like just what you added there 'cause when I saw your voice change and just when you were expressing it and it hit me as you said it and I felt it and then the way you reflected on it kind of helped that feeling rise really beautifully because what you said is so true that if you were broken by a frequency of envy and competition and whatever else it was, that's only proof that you were vibrating in a way that didn't want to be pulled down into that. And it's so interesting though how when we break to those sorts of emotions and ideas, we feel we're the weak one.
Emma: Yeah.
Jay: When it's completely the opposite.
Emma: That was the most painful thing was I thought I beat myself up for years afterwards really thinking, like punishing myself saying you couldn't hack it, you weren't strong enough. And yeah, what bliss and what peace I think to understand that to have come out on top would have been a greater failure I think in terms of who I actually care about being.
Jay: Yeah. It's almost like if you abandoned yourself in that moment in order to align with that new way of thinking.
Emma: Yeah.
Jay: You'd probably beat yourself up more long term and have a much harder time.
Emma: Yes, I think so. I don't know. I've just got to this place where it's just- if it costs me any part of my peace, it's just too expensive. And of course, like there's opportunities that I think, wow, like that would be amazing. And I care deeply about my work. But I think I just used to completely sacrifice myself for whatever the thing was I was trying to achieve. And that could be a grade, it could be a movie, it could be promoting. I just was obsessed with excellence and doing everything, giving my all to everything and doing it to the best of my ability. And unless you have the right people around you that can hold that kind of level of commitment, you're going to get smashed up. You're just going to get
crushed. And so I think now it's just a case of me being like, okay, I know that for me to do anything, I have to have people in the room that care about me more than whatever the product is or whatever the final product is. And if that isn't the case, I cannot be there because I'm just someone who like gives it all. It's how I'm built. And I think understanding that makeup of myself and not punishing myself for that, but just knowing it needs certain kinds of conditions is how I've come to hopefully- I'll keep doing it forever and probably every day, but accepting myself.
Jay: Yeah, it seems like- I've spoken to so many- and we were talking about this last week when we were speaking on the phone that I I've worked with so many young people, musicians, who've all been told like, "All right, if you don't do this over the next 12 months, you're not going to make it."
Emma: Yeah.
Jay: Or like if you don't do this right now, if you don't say yes to this song or this movie, it's like you might as well wave it goodbye. You're never going to get the Oscar or the whatever it may be or the Grammy or whatever it is. And I can't imagine being a young person, like, I'm 37 now and it's- you process ideas like that differently. But if you're in your teens or even 20s there's, and maybe even 30s, but you process those statements with so much gravitas, especially when it's someone of influence and power saying it to you. It feels like being surrounded by people who really believe in you and your longevity and your art versus- But that's hard to find.
Emma: It is. It's hard to find. And you know, I had a wonderful team. Like I really did. I think it's just like understanding that no one at the end of the day is going to be in the room like when you're actually doing the thing. You have to carry that moment and you have to carry that pressure. Also, making films, the hours on them are so demanding that to have your own life alongside that, to have that balance is almost impossible. It's so all or nothing. It's so all-encompassing, especially if you're in a lead role. You kind of go through these, you know, working six days a week, 14 to 16 hour days, and then you're just kind of dropped off at the end of it. And maybe you'll have a 2 or 3 month gap and then there's just kind of like nothing. And so you're like riding this incredible peak of adrenaline and cortisol and then you just get dropped off the edge and then you're like, "Okay, wait, now I have to be a functioning human again and I have to like figure out how to be a person in the real world." And I think some of those extremes then force an actor to either decide, well, I'm going to back to back it, so I'm going to basically go from one movie to the next, and that's going to be my full life. Or you have to navigate these huge impacts on your nervous system that you need a system and a support system to help you navigate. And I think it's why addiction and mental illness in my profession and in a lot of high stress, high profile professions is so common place because you're trying to balance out these enormous chemical ups and downs.
Jay: Yeah. talk talk to people about why because I think from the outside when someone sees a red carpet or when someone sees an event it looks really glamorous like until I ever attended anything and you know I always looked at it as like oh my gosh it's so glamorous and everyone's there and everyone must be friends and everyone must know each other because they all you know- but then you're not saying that and neither is- and anytime I've ever been on a red carpet everyone's anxious and everyone's
nervous and that's the real experience People are almost waiting to leave. And some people do the red carpet and leave immediately, but what's going on there? Like walk us through like for people who may not.
Emma: I think the first step is to just understand even though you're wearing an incredibly glamorous dress and you're there to do something exciting, I don't think there's anything that can make it not weird that people are screaming at the top of their lungs. Like it it just everything in your body says something's wrong. like people are screaming, something's wrong. But then you have to try to pretend as though this is all normal and you're unfased. So you have like two things going on. One, you're like navigating this like sensory overload that's like telling you, oh my god, something is really wrong.
Jay: Telling you how to pose, telling you where to look, telling you-
Emma: Yeah. So, so you're trying to navigate, okay, something feels wrong, but I need to also simultaneously make it seem as though I am the most graceful and the most calm I've ever been in my whole life. And I need to like pose for this person and there's 50 different cameras and I need to make sure that I look perfectly into each and every one. And I probably would have had four different notes from the stylist about how I'm supposed to stand and what I need to do for the dress. And then I've got like 25 different talking points from the movie of what I need to get across and also avoid saying or talking about. And so you need to be thinking about that. And the the juggle is crazy. And then I think everyone is in this kind of jumped up state. And so, like, trying to have a normal conversation with anyone is basically impossible because you feel like an insane person. And so these are not environments in which you have a nice chat with someone really. I mean, maybe if you're really lucky and you've worked with someone for a long time and you've established some trust, but I think that was the other thing that was really difficult about movies and what I kind of laugh at. Well, not in a mean way. I don't- but, like, you know you always get asked when you're promoting these big films like so do you guys hang out on set and do you guys hang out and are you all friends and everyone sort of nods enthusiastically but the truth is no one has seen each other outside of work like very very very rarely mostly because the schedule is insane. Everyone's so tired that when they get any time off you're going straight back to your hotel room to try to, like, claw in any piece of rest that you possibly can. And I don't know like it- friendships require time and trust and presence and those things very rarely come about. They can and they do occasionally but it's more of a, you know, solar eclipse than an everyday situation. So yeah, but you have to pretend. I think that's the part that starts to feel icky after a while is you have to pretend that you're all best friends. And what's so sad and I know this isn't just the case for me, but I think people wish they were. I think we wish we did have those real connections and we did have that real support. And so having to pretend that something exists that you actually really want but don't have is, like, pretty grainy in the wound, you know? It's a pretty tough pill to swallow to have to act out something that you wish were real but isn't real. And I think that's the part that starts to kind of- yeah. I can only speak for myself but those are definitely the moments where I've been, like, this feels dark. Like, is anyone else, like, this feels dark?
Jay: Yeah. And there's such a real reminder that it's still work. And it's almost like asking anyone who works at any company and saying, "Hey, do you hang out with your team after work every night?" And the answer is probably no. Yeah, no. Everyone's go home to their family. And maybe you've got a couple, of course, you got a couple of friends at work. And it's wonderful if you have a friend at work that you work out with or see after hours, but you're not hanging out as the whole crew. It's very unlikely.
Emma: 100%.
Jay: And it is that reality check of no but this is also just work and their character stories are not their personal stories and it doesn't and that's why I wanted to go back. You mentioned that you talked about how Harry Potter had a family feel and I wanted to ask you like how did that come about in the first like what was- where did the auditions come from like how did that become a part of your life.
Emma: Yes so I did not go to a performing arts school, I'd never done anything. I never acted professionally, but they did like a basically countrywide search to find Harry, Hermione, and Ron. And so they asked my school if they wanted to submit any students who love drama who wanted to audition. And so I was one of I think about 12 students that was asked if I wanted to audition. I don't know. It was weird. I had this weird weighted, fated sense of destiny pretty much from the moment that that they mentioned the audition. I remember I brought I think maybe like seven different Beanie Babies with me along and like all these different like lucky talismans and I loved the world and the books so much. My dad had been reading them to me before bed when I would spend the weekends with him and on long car journeys. We'd often drive back and forwards to France and that's how the time would be passed. And so I was just like- loved the world, loved Hermione. And for me it wasn't so much about acting so much as it was that like I- just the books meant so much to me personally.
Jay: Did you feel like it was destiny for you or did you always feel like it was going to be this? Because obviously the books were already, you know.
Emma: I always felt like Hermione was- I knew I was never auditioning for anything else. I knew it was her. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. Something felt right about it. And my poor parents because if I hadn't have got it, I think they knew how crushed- I ended up doing nine auditions over a period of over a year and a half, which for a 9-year-old is a massive commitment, but I was- I loved
her. I loved it. I really did.
Jay: What do you wish now that you would have known before you became Hermione?
Emma: I did a pretty good job and actually I give my mother specifically credit for this. She was like a warrior for my normalcy and for me having an ordinary life and going to school and no one wanted that. I mean, it would have been considerably easier if I had not continued going to school. But she, wow, I will forever be in her debt. She somehow knew that me feeling part of the ordinary world and feeling I had a place in it and that I belonged outside of those films was going to be crucial.
Jay: Wow, that's really incredible.
Emma: It was because she basically didn't have anyone on her team. She was kind of on her own on that one. And she fought tooth and nail. She was like on the phone for hours saying she has to sit her exams, she has to go back, she needs to be here, she needs to have some parts of a normal childhood. And yeah, forever in her debt.
Jay: That's so special to have had that. And have those- Yeah. To have a parent who can foresee like- and you can't see anything for yourself. You're…
Emma: Yeah. No. And to be honest, I didn't really I didn't really get it.
Jay: No of course.
Emma: If I'm going to be- I was like okay, like, I guess it's important, you know, I didn't really get it. So I think- Yeah, she was amazing.
Jay: Yeah. When did- because from what I was reading from what you shared with me, I was- when did Emma, you, Emma Watson and Hermione and the characters that then followed start to get blurred and intertwined because that expectation that comes with- I remember this and I share it because to give it to context to people I was walking down the road with one of my friends who's an actor who gets recognized a hundred times for every one time I might get recognized. So, just put in context. And so, if we're walking down like this person get stopped 100 times for pictures and then I'll get stopped once. And it was really beautiful 'cause we'd spent a day together and that person had been stopped 100 times and maybe I've been stopped a couple of times. And then they said something to me. They said, "Jay, you're really lucky." And I said, "What do you mean?" And I thought they were going to say, "Because I'm anonymous to some degree." But they didn't. He said to me, he goes, "Jay, you're really lucky because" he goes, "When people stop me, they stop me for who I play to be. And when they stop you, they stop you for who you are." And it was really encouraging words from someone that I respect a lot. And I was like, "Wow." Like, I never thought about it like that. I just- it hadn't hit me how different it
was. And because I think you just see fame or success or whatever is this one big bubble of stuff, especially when you're not that close to it, you don't know too much about it. And it was that conversation that made me even be even more personal with everyone that I ever spoke to because they'd always have a personal story or and that's not to say that isn't true for music and for acting and of course there is. I don't want to take away from it.
Emma: No. No.
Jay: Um and I'm not saying that as a egotistical statement. I'm saying it as like how hard it is for an individual to go through that.
Emma: Yes.
Jay: And to be disassociated from themselves.
Emma: Yes.
Jay: Because that role could be a part of you. It could be an expression of you. It was a part of your life at a certain period of time, but of course it isn't you.
Emma: Yes.
Jay: But does that make any sense?
Emma: I remember when I gave my UN speech about He For She and about feminism and women's rights and people started stopping me because of things that I- had come from me and that I had said. It felt like a very significant transition for me because for the first time I felt like I could look someone in the eye and receive and accept something that they were saying because I felt like it actually had something to do with me and I wasn't just kind of a like a custodian of something sacred which I did take very seriously and I still do but it had been a direct transmission from me and I think that's why writing has become so important to me is because it's a way that I say things directly and that feels really meaningful.
Jay: Yeah, I love the word you just used there of the difference between being a custodian and, you know, direct transmission you said and that's such an interesting way to think about it and I think each and every one of us don't want to be known as a lawyer or an accountant or a doctor or a... like, yes that's a part of us and it's a role we play in society and it of course brings significance and value and worth and all of these wonderful things but I think everyone wants to be something beyond that And no one wants to be that in their home. And no one wants to be that with their friends. And no one wants and and me included, by the way. It's like I try and me and one of my friends who's a well-known stand-up comic, we always joke about how he hates to be asked to tell jokes on command and I try with my friends to not say smart. I try not to say thoughtful revelatory things because of my friends. I just want to be, like, I don't want to have to coach someone's marriage or solve their thing. I don't want to do that. Like I just want to be and and so even for someone who is doing direct transmission a lot more of the time even then there's a feeling of well I don't want to say anything profound in this conversation.
Emma: I need to put this down.
Jay: Yeah. I need to put the one down. Right.
Emma: Yes. Yeah. I think a big piece of me understanding again why I needed to take a minute is that even being the person who was promoting the work became a kind of role like Emma Watson became this, like, avatar, this person that I identified with but also kind of didn't. She'd become reproduced so many times over and kind of had become so loaded by all of this different stuff that she almost felt too heavy to carry. Like I kind of was, like, I don't even know if I can be that bitch anymore. I went on a date like 2 years ago and it was the best confession ever. But I was messaging this person. And he was
like, "Can I just say something? Like, Emma Watson makes me anxious." And I was like, "Emma Watson makes me anxious, too."
Jay: That's so good.
Emma: We are on the same page. Like, I get it. I can't even be her. I don't know how to be her. Live up to what I look like on the cover of a magazine. I don't look like that. Like, I don't know. I don't even know how to touch what that person's become. That was kind of a funny realization at some point where I was like, I really need to step off this thing 'cause I just- once you've, I don't know, there's such a glamorization that comes hand in hand with being a public famous person, especially if you're a woman. I feel so envious of my male co-stars who can just put on a t-shirt and show up without like this like whole rigmarole of kind of becoming being acceptable enough to be on camera and kudos to Pamela Anderson recently just doing the thing because it's- the amount of courage it will have taken to do that, I cannot even begin to express to you. It's wild the expectations are insane it's impossible so
Jay: Shot on vacation, private space
Emma: Yeah just the beauty expectations are so difficult to reach and the bar gets raised all the time. So, it's like you're on this constantly like I don't know, it's like some sort of like Survivors Island game show beauty nightmare where, you know, I don't know. It's nuts. So I- Yeah, I think part of also not feeling like Emma Watson is just like the whole like glam squad culture of it all is- it's intense. It's- yeah
Jay: It's so fascinating because there's almost like this learning of becoming you know becoming Emma Watson becoming you know being all the roles you play and then it almost feels like what you're saying is there was a moment you wanted to step off and unlearn what that meant.
Emma: Totally.
Jay: But that seems really hard.
Emma: Yes.
Jay: Because learning it was hard enough and then to unlearn it when it's linked to your work, your finances, your worth, your friendship, community, connection, all of the where you live. How do you even begin to unlearn being Emma Watson?
Emma: It's a knotted ball you have to sort of unravel very carefully and-
Jay: Carefully. That's it. Yeah.
Emma: Yeah. I think-
Jay: It's not like a wrecking ball. like you're not just-
Emma: I mean some things had to be done like the wrecking ball honestly and then some parts of it were like a much slower, more gentle teasing out but I mean I don't know if you find this but I imagine that a lot of your friendships are made through the podcast and made through your work and there's kind of this like non-separation between your home and your family and your relationship and the podcast but tied into that there's also like the very real- some people will be wanting you to reference their new book or like promote something for them or whatever and like navigating that- so many of these threads are entwined. Does it ever start to feel like you're like, "Wow, this is a lot." People ask me all the time, "Do you ever wonder why people want to hang out with you or be your friend or whatever?" And does that ever get complicated for you?
Jay: I think because my direct transmission is so clear, that if anyone in the industry wants to connect, there's usually quite a distinct journey that they're on that mine can support or help with as a friend or in in a more formal capacity and that I deeply enjoy and I'm grateful for because people are not inviting me out to crazy parties
Emma: They're not?!
Jay: and I'm happy. Yeah, they're not. Yeah. They don't think I'm fun enough. Yeah. I just saw a clip of the other day of Austin Butler saying he's never been invited to a bachelor party before and I was like, I couldn't believe it. But that kind of feel like I don't get invited to crazy parties and and I'm grateful for that. I don't- that's not really a part of my life, right? Unless it's a spiritual party and then I'm all game and- but there isn't that. And so sometimes I think my direct transmission is a good protective mechanism because I don't really get asked to come to things but then at the same time it takes me to get to know someone deeply. Like I just traveled with a friend to Greece and we played and I don't think they were anticipating this but we played three nights of poker from midnight to 7:00 a.m. and it was amazing and I loved it and I had the best time and I don't think they expected me to do that. They expect me to get to bed early but I was on vacation and I was like I'm game. and I won. So I was like, you know, I'll take it. And I'm very competitive in that way and I enjoy it. And so I think what it is for me is I think there's a big thing for me that's been from- I grew up as part of a big community. In London. And a big spiritual community that I became a part of when I was young. And I think that what I found is it's very difficult to discern for people externally and even for people in that community as to how close they were to me. And so there are some people that assume that because we sat in a class together and there were 200 people in the class. But now that their opinion on me or that their relationship with me is close when in actuality I've never had a one-to-one conversation with that person. And so now their opinion matters to the outside world, it matters to the media, it matters to whatever, but I actually don't know that person and they don't really know me. It's just so that we went to the same congregation in the same year which has lots thousands of people in it. And so I struggle with that and then I also struggle with people coming up to me and saying, "Oh, Jay, I've known you for 20 years and you know, like from back in the day at the temple and but I'm like we didn't like we didn't ever have like a conversation." And I still have all my best friends from that community that are still my closest friends and they also feel the same way because they see it. And so I think I find that very difficult.
Emma: Yeah, that's true.
Jay: It is hard to navigate because it's not that I don't have positive feelings towards people or the community or anything. I do. But I struggle with people feeling they know me when they never did. But they've almost created a story within their mind that they really knew me well. And because it was a big community, this isn't a group of school friends or something which I'm still really close with. It's more this expanded community which you were just visible in. Not even audible or if that makes any sense.
Emma: No, that makes perfect sense. I think- yeah, being part of a larger community would be tricky to navigate with, yeah, with the kind of I guess like being a famous person in essence is like lots of people can project lots of things onto you and like if they had some level of contact with you it makes those kinds of projections a lot easier and then you're like oh wow we're in a completely different like your experience of this is so different from mine.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean yours is like a million x that and you know I can't imagine how hard dating is like. You talked about in some of the journal reflections that you sent me, like, this idea of just like- dating is hard as a 20-year-old, 30-year-old woman anyway. And then to add your life to it. Talk to me. You've referenced it a couple of times in conversations you've had. Like what does it feel like when you're having a normal conversation and someone goes, "Wait a minute, you're Hermione Granger, Emma Watson, you know, list goes on." Yeah.
Emma: Yeah. I mean, it does feel like my avatar enters the room, unexpectedly, all of a sudden, and then I'm like navigating a completely different conversation if someone hasn't figured out that it's me yet. And that can feel really dehumanizing and sometimes quite kind of seeing someone's like behavior like completely switch and turn and change can be kind of a jarring experience. I think what's nice is at the very least dating for everyone is basically a complete disaster and free-for-all. So, like I feel like I'm in good company in that sense. But I think it's funny occasionally people will apologize to me for the fact they've not seen my films and I will be like please don't apologize. That is bliss to me like music to my ears that like you're not going to constantly be navigating and me also navigating with you. This projection of me or this Emma Watson avatar person will not be this ghost in the room. So, um, that's happened a few times where people have been like, "I'm really sorry." And I'm like, "Please don't apologize. I'm so relieved. I'm so incredibly relieved."
Jay: And then you realize they have the box that later on.
Emma: Yeah. No. I'm like, "God, I hope not." But, I mean, I guess I want people to appreciate my work, but I think knowing you don't have to navigate that extra like degree of weirdness is helpful, a relief.
Jay: How do you help people get to know the real you at this stage in your life?
Emma: You know, I wrote this play that I actually sent to you to read, but I actually read parts of it to people because I find that trying to explain sometimes how weird it is to be me. Like I almost need aids. like it's so difficult to convey like how weird it is and how surreal sometimes that I sometimes I'll just be like can I just like read you this thing I wrote because I think it's going to shortcut you somewhere and so that's actually been incredibly helpful and I'm so glad I went and did this this creative
writing masters and I've spent more time writing about my experiences because sometimes I can't even articulate it to myself like how are you supposed to explain something to someone else if you can't really even understand for yourself? So, I think writing, creative writing, making art has been the best therapy I've ever done because it's helped me get clarity and also just be able to laugh at myself and laugh at the situation. I think one-on-one therapy can be amazing, but like there is a kind of intensity and a seriousness to that that maybe, when you're writing something down and when I wrote the play, I wrote it for my friends and family and I was able to kind of bring more of myself to the picture in a way which is someone who's like this is just nuts. Like I can't sometimes, I just genuinely cannot believe that my life is my life and I need a place where I can put that.
Jay: Yeah, I loved- So just for everyone who's you know hearing about the referencing of this play, Emma wrote a play which helped her closest friends and family understand her experience of life basically. Is that a bad description as a-
Emma: No, no, it's not a bad description. But like specifically, I wrote the play about me transitioning from basically being a full-time actress, an activist to trying to move home and like be a normal student and attend a normal university as a super famous person. And I basically kept a journal of what those experiences were like and chronicled them for my friends and family for about a year and then performed it as a one-woman show at the end of the first year and handed that in as my first year piece of work and yeah. Yeah.
Jay: Did it get an A
Emma: it got a distinction!
Jay: Oh, amazing. Great. There we go. I love it.
Emma: It actually did. Not that that was the point, but it kind of wasn't the point, but I think the coolest thing was like I read it for my roommate, for example, who's been leaving with me for 7 years, and he was like, "Wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop." He's like, "Is this actually how you feel? Like, do you actually feel this?" And I was like, "Yeah, I wouldn't have written it if I didn't." And he was like, "I had no idea that this was how you felt." And this is someone I live with. And so for me who I perceive myself to be this like massive open book and actually I realized I was like wow I think I'm doing a good job of bringing the people that I love along with me on what this feels like and actually I'm not saying nearly enough or explaining it in a way where it makes sense. And so even my parents were just like- couldn't believe it really. Yeah.
Jay: I'm sure they were brought to tears by parts of it. I mean, I was so moved by it and I really hope you do one day make it a production in some capacity because it was so moving and so powerful and it was, Emma, honestly it was what every public figure has ever tried to explain to me about their experience yet put so succinctly, powerfully and meaningfully that anyone could relate to it and I think anyone meaning anyone who's ever felt misunderstood loved for what they have and not who they are. Seen for parts of themselves and not all of themselves. And I really believe it would be such a service to everyone to share it one day in however way you decide to because honestly I was gripped. I was completely captivated. I couldn't put it down. I feel like I'm going to read it again and again and again. It's not something that I think you read once. Not only are you a brilliant writer, but it is so true and honest. And for everyone who's listening and watching, I think the lesson from it for me is that your therapy could turn into something creative that when you shared that with me when we were speaking on the phone, I was so in awe of that that therapy in one to one setting or in whatever way of healing you believe in, if it turns into something you have to put together to communicate to others, that's the revelation. Like the revelation is in that process, not in the listening, telling, sharing, speaking, that that's great and that's a part of it. But if you can go one step ahead
Emma: Truly, I feel this like urgency and like desperation to communicate this specific piece, which is like make art about your experiences. Like the neurosis of being a writer, anyone making anything is like, I don't have anything valuable to say, it's all been said before, this is so self-indulgent, this is so narcissistic, who even wants to hear this? This is bad. I thought all of those thoughts probably most days as I wrote this. But trust me, like whatever you think people know about you or they know about your life or how you feel about it, they don't. And they need you to write poems, write songs, make pictures, write plays. And you don't need to be someone with the title of an artist to be able to do that. You really don't. And in fact, I have to write on my mirror. I have it written on my door, "I am an artist" because I don't think anyone feels like they deserve that title. I've been making films and writing and making art since I was 9 years old. And I don't feel like I deserve that title. And I have to work at it all the time to feel like I have anything that's worthwhile saying. I really understand the struggle. I really really do. But there is something about doing it and like having a physical thing because I think so many of these thoughts and feelings live in our heads and it's not a great place for them to live. They need to come out somewhere and once you can put them somewhere then you're free. Being understood or feeling like you're understood by the people around you has got to be the best feeling in the world. And I think it's what we're looking for when we do so many things, but often that's not the way to find it. And I just- God, yeah. If I honestly- I want to go to every person in the street and be like you need to write a one-person show about your life and then perform it for your friends and family or like you need to like you know paint the thing, write the song, like just do it because it's kind of one of the best most meaningful things I've I've done is trying to make sense of it all. Yeah.
Jay: And I love that you did it for your family. Like that's the part that proves to me when you say the message of make your art and you know you don't need to be a full-time actor or director or movie filmmaker. It's like you actually lived that part and that's what I love about it the most is that you didn't make it for a stage or a movie or a documentary or whatever.
Emma: And honestly first I wrote it for myself. I didn't think I had the guts to read this aloud to anyone. I thought it was just for me and maybe like two other people and performing it for my like- I didn't even invite my family until like two days before because I just didn't think I had the courage. Make art for people you love. Like make beautiful things for people that you love. Just for people that you love. I guess like I had the extraordinary experience of making things for like the world basically from such a young age. And I never made anything that I didn't feel like needed to be shared publicly. And I remember when I made Little Women, I mean, that's such an amazing thing about Louisa May Alcott is that really she wrote those stories for her sisters. And so many people's journeys and paths start because yeah, out of love, they wrote them for just one person. There was a certain point I remember in my life where I was like, "Right, I'm done with university now and now I'm going to just like focus full- what I should be doing is just focusing full-time on being an actress." and you know doing all of that and I had completely missed actually that Emma the academic, Emma the student, Emma the person that needs to needs to constantly be learning things, facilitated my ability to be a famous person and in Hollywood and that without her I actually couldn't do it. I needed- I need to have both and that when one gets stripped away and like even as I explore this in the play as well like even as I have returned to some form of normalcy ordinary life whatever that looks like to me now like I also can't kill her off completely you know my public persona there's parts of me that like still does need those outlets and to do those things too and I'm figuring out what those are but I think that's what's so complicated about being human is it's yes, and not either or. It's we need to be all of ourselves so that we can do the extraordinary things that we want to do. Maybe it's about not leaving parts of ourselves behind like kind of finding a way to keep threading the tapestry of all of it.
Jay: Yeah, I think that's- I mean you've said it so well and I really feel that's what it's been for me. I feel like as humans, we're very good at being like, "Okay, this chapter of my life is over." And we do it because labeling helps, but it's like you went from being a toddler or an infant and then you became, you know, a teen and then a young adult and then an adult and then- So, we have all these labels and it almost feels like we live our life that way of like, okay, I was a student at university. If I went to university and now I have a job and I'm an employee or an entrepreneur, whatever it is. And labels are useful. So I'm not going to say they aren't. But what ends up happening is you start labeling phases of your life, which means now there isn't a "yes and", it's an "either or". So it's like I was an actress, now I'm going to be an academic. And it's like, well, no, I'm an academic and an actress and a whatever else. You know, and and I think that's what it's been for me. It's like I know that the people that know me best will say, "Jay, I love you because we can talk about spirituality. We can talk about business and we can talk about communication, media, art, and I love you because we can do all those three things in one day. And I'm like, yes, I feel so seen. Whereas if someone only said one of those things, I'd feel so limited. And what I've realized is I'm now at a place where I've given myself permission to be all of myself, even if others don't give me permission to be all of those things. Because, yeah.
Emma: And how amazing to get to that point where I realized for a long time I was pushing for- I need everyone to understand me and I need them to understand these decisions and I need them to understand that I'm all of these things. And I'm like but do you really, Emma? Do you actually really need them to get it or is it enough that you get it? You see it and understand it and you're making it possible and giving yourself permission to do that. And I think once I kind of let go of like, okay, it matters way more that I accept myself than that I spend so much energy and time trying to force other people to see these things about me. And then paradoxically, of course, once you let go, people start getting it which is which is funny.
Jay: Emma, how do you how do you see love
today?
Emma: God, what a great question. How do I see love today? Oh, okay. I think I have an answer for this. How exciting. I was worried there for a moment I was like shit, I have nothing to say. God, I hope I do. Am I not that deep? Yeah. Okay. So, um I think that we don't talk about love nearly enough or I think we need to talk about it so much more because I had such a, not a misunderstanding but I think I had a very limited understanding of it for a long time which was that we see in Disney movies and in Hollywood movies this idea that like falling in love once it's sort of happened to you it's like irreversible, you know like step into this portal that you can't get out of anymore because you've fallen in love. And actually, I think falling in love might be quite easy to do in some ways. That's sort of the easy bit. The hard part is finding someone who actually wants to be in a dance with you and be in some form of partnership with you. And things like, can you argue well, can you be- is the conflict that you have generative? And can you make someone else feel safe? Like, and when I say safe, I don't mean like out of physical danger. I mean like, can you either respond to a text message quickly enough that doesn't send the other person into like a complete free fall and- or not pelt them with so many that they feel completely overwhelmed and flooded. And like that kind of like compatibility and that kind of willingness to be in this like- is this okay for you? Does this feel good to you? This is how it feels for me. And like there's like that constant back and forth and that constant check-in is like a game of um checking in a way of like can you find someone who's willing to be as vulnerable as it necessarily requires I think to like figure out those micro adjustments until you're sort of in some kind of dance with someone else. And that is a very different understanding that I have come to of what love is than I had. I mean like loving someone is so much more complex than the projections that we put on someone or even like just lusting or having some small feeling for someone else. But I just think that we have such a black and white idea about what love is supposed to be. And I wish I'd understood more before I went into battle. I do. I really, really do. What do you think love is, Jay?
Jay: Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. You're flipping this back, Emma. This is about you. It's not about-
Emma: Yeah! This is a conversation. Well, does any of what I've said resonate?
Jay: It does. It does. It resonates a lot.
Emma: am I on the right track, Jay. I need you to tell me.
Jay: I think it resonates a lot. I grew up with a very film naive Disney version of what love was. Like I love that version of love. I love the idea that love was this really romantic, really sweet, writing letters every day kind of love. Like that that's the love I dreamed of and love I thought of as a kid at least. And then, you know, I think I realized that you do all of that with the first person you're with in your teens and you kind of think it's the real thing, but then they're in a mood every night for no reason and you're
just people pleasing and trying to figure out what's going on and you think it's all about making that person happy and so you mold and you bend and, you know, sabotage parts of yourself. And I realized very quickly that that wasn't love. And I think what's really interesting about love now
is that marrying my wife who I've been with now for 12 years and married for nine.
Emma: Wow.
Jay: And so it's the longest time I've ever spent with anyone and also the only person I've been with after I left the monastery. And so there's been a certain chapter of my life that I've been with her for. And I really feel she's taught me more about love for two reasons. The first is she doesn't subscribe to any of the movie Disney versions of Love.
Emma: Wow.
Jay: At all.
Emma: Oh my god. What education did she have? Where can I get it?
Jay: Yeah. Literally. And the other part is that I think she's the only person I've ever loved enough to be taught by.
Emma: Oh my god.
Jay: Which is like a really interesting part of love that I think's missed. And I feel like love is the humility to feel-. It's humility on both parts because the other person's not actively teaching and you're actively receiving. So it's this really strange dance between- it's almost like if you're dancing. There has to be a humility on both sides because it's not that one person leads and the other person follows. It's the other person's kind of like should we do this? Should we try this? There's a anxiety and a humility in requesting that and the other person gets to choose to go with it or not go and say no we're going to go in this direction and that's a great dance to watch and I feel like, with my wife, she's never directly taught me but she's challenged me in ways that if other people would have I might have left.
Emma: Oh my god, how beautiful.
Jay: And so why am I staying? And then you go okay I'm staying because there's love. And so love is the ability to be taught without teaching and learning without feeling like you're being led or misled. And that for me has been a really beautiful lesson. And if I just said this to my wife out loud right now, she would just laugh because she'd just find it funny. And then she's- Yeah. She also taught me how to love me for who I was and not what I had. Because I think a lot of men go through this, at least men that I'm friends with and that I've spoken to, that we want people to respect us for our success. And rever us for our accomplishments. It's how men have been adored since the beginning of time for going out and getting the food or going out there and winning the battle or conquering a nation. And that's what you were known for. And so my wife's been with me since before my career took off and I had any success. And I think as I gained success, I think my immaturity was to want her to love me for that more. And she never did. She just didn't do it.
Emma: Wow. How amazing.
Jay: And it drove me crazy. And she didn't do it in a rejecting way or in a- it just didn't make a difference to her.
Emma: "This is why I love you."
Jay: And and it took me a long time to wrap my head around that and realize because you know those are the times when you could start liking other people who love you for what you have achieved and what you have built and all the rest of it. And I think I just have so much respect for her that-
Emma: she never gave in on that.
Jay: Yeah. She never gave in and she helped me love myself for who I am. And I think that's the point that I think I would have- if I had met someone else, I would have valued myself for very different reasons. And knowing you're with someone who truly is with you because of who you are and your character and that's what they honor. And and I think that word honor and respect probably the last thing I'd say I think we always say like love is respect and based on respect but-
Emma: I wrote a list of things that I- I tried to be clear with myself about what it is I was really looking for and I really want and one is someone that I can learn from. So it's really interesting that you said learning without teaching, teaching without learning and that kind of reciprocal like I really want to be with someone that I can learn from and I hope that yeah as you say has the humility to be willing to learn from me. But the other thing is I think it's why I'm so obsessed with the musical Hamilton and why so many people have been. Maybe this is- it's so funny that we're on the purpose podcast, but like are you with someone who- 'cause obviously what you have with someone is is wonderful, right? Like what you two share together, but if you can be in service of a vision that you both share or at the very least are you willing to honor and give dignity to the work of the other person and whatever their vision or mission is in this world. That to me seems far more sustainable than anything else. And so I guess my big hope or wish would be that I met someone who feels like what I want to do in the world- Yes, that I'm important, but they also feel that what I'm here to do is important to them, too. And in some way intersects with what they're here to do.
Jay: I couldn't agree more. It's exactly what I was going to say.
Emma: Is it?
Jay: Yeah. That I think the word respect and relationship is thrown around a lot but this is the deepest form of respect where- there's a famous quote that I don't know who said it but there's a- and I would you know you could take the genders out of it now but there's a famous quote that says men marry women hoping they'll never change, and women marry men hoping they can change them and to me wanting someone to never change or wanting to be able to change someone are both signs of disrespect because I think the greatest respect you can have is to respect what this person values in this moment and how that evolves and that's their purpose, their offering, their values. And at no point are you trying to change them. And I've talked about this often where my wife and I- I do this exercise with couples when I'm working with them, but I've also done it in our relationship. And I ask people to rank their top three priorities in order.
Emma: Wow.
Jay: And people do it privately and then they share them.
Emma: Wow.
Jay: And so generally one person will put themselves first, their partner second, and then the kids third. And the other person will put the kids first, the partner second, and themselves third. And the person who put themselves third is always mad at the person who put themselves first because there's this friction of well "wait a minute how can you not put the kids first" or "how can you not put family first" or whatever it may be in your given situation and the other person is like well if I don't put myself first then what can I give to you all and that kind of displays this dichotomy and this belief we have around love means complete sacrifice and love means self-sabotage to some degree or love means putting yourself aside and the reality is actually no my goal is to make sure that you live your purpose and greatest vision of yourself and your purpose is to help me do that. When we both do that, everything's-
Emma: Then it's poetry.
Jay: And my wife practiced that and she does it naturally. And it's hard to do that in a world that constantly reminds you both that sometimes the other person isn't where you are. Or, you know, the idea of why haven't you had kids yet? Or when are you going to be in the same country for longer than a month? or whatever they may be because it doesn't fit into the norm of what relationships look like. And I was thinking about that with you as well, like, you know, I know you talked about how getting asked the question, when are you getting married or why aren't you married yet? And that's something every woman's hearing. What's your reaction when you hear that?
Emma: I'm just so happy not to be divorced yet. Like that sounds like a really negative answer, but I just- I think that we are- we're being pressured and forced into this thing that like I believe is a kind of miracle. I might never be worthy of it. I hope it happens to me, but like I don't feel entitled to it. Like, it will either be part of my purpose here and my destiny or it won't. And I think the way we treat it as though well why haven't you and this is something that has to happen in this certain time span and at this certain age in this kind of way is like the least romantic thing I can possibly think of. Like truly, like if I had tried to get married any point basically before about a year ago, it would have been carnage. I just didn't know myself well enough yet. I didn't have a clear enough idea of what my purpose, my vision, like how I was going to be of service. I didn't know where I really felt like I needed to be. I think I have some of those answers now. So when I meet someone, I can say, "Hi, I'm Emma. This is what I care about. This is where the people I love the most live. This is where it's meaningful for me to be in the world." And then they can decide whether they can see that there's a way that I can serve what they're trying to do and they can serve what I'm trying to do. But before that, like they would have just got like a very mixed signal. I mean, there's some parts of me that have stayed utterly consistent, but there are some parts that like I was really still teasing out and figuring out. And I think it's such a violence and it's such a cruelty on people and especially young people I think to make- and especially women to make them feel like they have no worth or like they haven't succeeded yet in life because they haven't forced to its culmination something that I just don't think can or should ever be forced. It's something that honestly I feel like I've had to earn. I've had to work for to be in a place where I feel like I can look someone in the eye and be able to tell them who I am and to have some idea and it will change and grow of what I want and what I'm here to do. That takes work. Like I have really sat with myself in a lot of discomfort and asked myself a lot of very difficult questions to be at that point. It hasn't happened to me yet.
Jay: I do think everyone's worthy of love, but I like I- and I don't think that's what you're saying either. Yeah.
Emma: I think so. I guess maybe like partnership or marriage I guess is what we're both saying is like almost a different game. Like it's almost a different playing field actually. Like actually co-joining and like properly sharing your life with someone and being in partnership with them seems like it's its own thing.
Jay: It is. It takes so much work and it takes so much adjustment and adapting more than compromising and sacrificing. There's so much flexibility. There's so much allowing. It's so different at different times. Like sometimes patience looks like being by that person's side and saying nothing. And sometimes patience means being halfway across the world and not communicating. And sometimes patience looks like talking and listening. Like you know it's- patience doesn't look like one thing over a lifespan. And there are parts of my wife that have stayed exactly the same in 12 years. And there are parts that have completely changed. And I have a choice every time that happens to learn to love the new or not. And that's a choice I have to make and she has to make as well. And so there's so much constant choosing and constant evolving that it's very easy to just- it's very easy to be like, "Yeah, I chose them the day we got married." And people always ask me, I'm like, I don't think I even knew who my wife was the day we got married. Like now when I think about it, like I loved her, but I had no idea. And that's what it should feel like. I don't think if I was here to say like, yeah, the wedding day was one of the best days of my life, but it's not the day I loved my wife the most. Because I didn't really even know what I was getting myself into.
Emma: That's amazing. I was thinking recently about trust and telling the truth and I realized the scary, crazy thing about it seems to me about intimacy is that it seems to be conditional on your ability to like keep telling the truth and perhaps even revealing deeper and deeper and deeper truths at the risk that that truth might mean that that person might not continue to choose you. So, even though you've been in this relationship for 12 years, like every day you have to choose to risk it all if you want there to be continued intimacy by continuing to tell your truth to this other person. And that seems so courageous to me. Like, in order for there to be genuine connection and closeness, you have to be willing to risk it all sometimes or like probably almost constantly. And that it seems like it takes so much courage because we don't like change. We don't want things to change. So you also want a relationship that's alive and still living and breathing and not some like dead thing.
Jay: Yeah. So well said. And what you're saying is like that feeling of when you're not actually being truthful consistently, that's when we feel people have had big changes in their life. Because if you had the consistent truthfulness, the change felt more smooth and gradual. Whereas when the change came like, you know, a wrecking ball where I had this feeling and I'm just telling you it, it's because I didn't tell you about all the little incremental changes and sometimes you don't know it's even happening. So it's not your fault or this is not something that you can say has to be the case. But I think that's why being more truthful, more honest, more regularly and consistently allows for the change to feel more gradual. It's almost like going back to your dance analogy, like if you're about to throw someone up in the air and catch them. There has to have been a touch or a preparation. Before someone just grabs hold of you and throws you in the air. And it's like, well, I would have liked a warning. And that's why your analogy is so good because it's- you would throw someone up in a dance at some point if you were both talented and gifted enough, but there would have been a preparation. There would have been a nod, there would have been a look, a feel, a touch or, you know, to set that up. And like one of the hardest questions you talked about asking yourself difficult questions and I want to ask you something about that. But one thing I've said to my wife is if you ever fall out of love with me, please tell me because I don't want to live a day without love. I'm really confident about the fact that I'm worthy of love and that I want to experience love in my life. If you ever fall out of me, just tell me it's okay because I don't have the desire to stay somewhere for any other reason. And it sounds risky saying that and extreme, but to me it's a greater risk to have spent 10 extra years with someone and then they tell me, "Yeah, I haven't really loved you for the last 5, 10 years." And then I'm like, "Wait a minute. I've lived without love for 10 years of my life" and I don't want to be in that place because I've seen people go through that and not be happy. And so it does come with a humility and an openness to have very difficult conversations. And not to force something that, oh, it's been going great for 12 years. It has to. It should do. It must do. And it's like, well, maybe no. Like, yes, if it does, it's great. And it is right now, but why shouldn't right now be a prediction for how you feel in 15 years with everything else that's going to change?
Emma: I think if I knew I really couldn't meet the needs of someone and they couldn't meet my needs, if I really couldn't make them happy and they couldn't make me happy, like forcing them to stay in that situation, surely that makes love impossible. Like, negates. So I totally get what you're saying and my mom said this thing to me which was like you want to be with someone because you want them not because you need them. And I think maybe another reason why I didn't get married younger is because I think maybe I would have married someone not knowing who I was and I would have needed them, maybe not wanted them. And I think now I have a life that's whole and complete as it is. And I would be making a choice from a place of I just want you and I don't need you, but I just want you. And I don't think I was that woman five years ago.
Jay: Yeah. I love that. And there's so much to be said for attracting from a place of peace because you know what peace feels like and so then anyone or anything that comes into your life-
Emma: And what feeling satisfied feels like.
Jay: Satisfied is probably even a better word and that feeling of I know what it feels like to be satisfied and so I now know whether someone makes me more satisfied or less.
Emma: I know what my baseline is. If you don't know what your baseline happy is then how do you- you've got no idea of knowing what's going on at all.
Jay: And that's not a feeling of being complete or having it all figured out. It's like I know what satisfy is a great word. It's like I know what it feels like to be at peace with myself or satisfied with myself. And now everyone can show me where that pendulum swings. One thing you said which really resonated with me is that you've had to ask yourself so many hard questions to do the work. And I wanted to ask you what's one of the hardest questions you've ever had to ask yourself if you could recall.
Emma: Well, the first one that comes to mind and then maybe I'll dig for a deep or a different one is to have to admit to myself or ask myself the question of like you right now have the career and the life that looks like the dream, but are you really happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? Are you really happy? Is this really what you want? And to be at that point and realize and have to admit to myself that I wasn't and I didn't, was one of the scariest things I've ever had to do because, you know, I basically had to ask myself on a daily basis I felt like I was crazy and walking away from something without knowing what you're walking towards was- not having the answers but leaving something that was con- that the world considered to of such high value, such a high value kind of moment in my professional life and career. I think that was a real- sitting with that was a real moment of reckoning of like can you tell yourself the truth? Can you live with your truth? Can you accept the fact that for most other people your truth is pretty confusing and unpalatable? That was definitely a hard moment of sitting. more recently because I've been being my own partner, asking myself, are you really living your values, things that you preach? Are you actually aligned? And actually looking at some spaces in my life where I was like, shit no, not at all. I'm actually not doing what I talk about. And I need to like create some sort of urgency or a deadline for that so that I make sure that I'm a person of integrity. I purport to be someone that cares about the world and about the planet and sustainability. And, you know, there are some things I was doing. Was it enough by my own standards? Not by anyone else's. Just by my own. Probably not. But what's nice is I actually have the time now to be like, "Okay, what are you going to do about it?" Like, "Get get on with it." And like-
Jay: but those are- Thank you for those. Those are great questions. Really really great questions and so hard for so many reasons. Especially when you talked about like when you're stepping away from and and stepping toward. Did you have people in the industry or like people that you could talk to that felt the same way? Like did you have co-stars or friends or-
Emma: No. I don't know anyone else. I'll never say that I I quit acting. I'll always be an actor. I'm still open to doing it again. but I certainly made a decision to take time to figure out- to not know and to, you know, I had like this whole disassembling the structure that's needed to carry the loads. And it's like there's an agent and a publicist and a manager and a personal assistant and there's all these people and lives who are intertwined with mine and navigating and caring for, and negotiating that with people as well was really tricky and also I was just bloody terrified. Like I think there's a kind of infantilization that can happen when you work as much as I did and a kind of loss of independence that means that you're like, "Oh my god, can I even do my life if I don't have this army of people who are like helping me do the most menial and basic of things? Like can I actually like do this stuff myself?" And I don't even say that in terms of like capability, but like just from the place of like it's difficult for me to walk down the street sometimes. So if I'm going to start to take on truly the responsibility of most of my life myself, like what's that going to be like? Like can I really do that stuff? I think fame makes you feel like you can't do things for yourself in a way that can really disempower you and remove your confidence and autonomy as a human being. That's really disabling.
Jay: And for everyone who's who's wondering, yeah, Emma called me up and I was like, "So, should I speak to your publicist?" She's like, "Nope, I am my publicist." I was like, "Do I need to check with the manager?" "Nope, I am my manager." And like that was literally the conversation we had. She booked this podcast herself. There was no booker. There was no booking system. There was no reach out.
Emma: No,
Jay: It was literally Emma doing it herself, which is proof you are living your values.
Emma: Thank you.
Jay: And you are aligned with what you're saying. I wanted people to know that.
Emma: Thank you. I appreciate that. What's so funny though now is like because I do everything myself, there's like a 50% chance you would have not thought it was me or like sometimes when I reach out to people
Jay: I had plenty of moments I had to double take. I was like, "Wait a minute." Like verified tick, amount of followers, who you follow.
Emma: People think it's not me. And so like I have a 50/50 rate of people actually just like not responding to me because they don't think I'd be reaching out myself.
Jay: That's real. I had to do a second take. I think I even checked it this morning. Like, wait a minute.
Emma: Was it definitely her?
Jay: Is it definitely her or am I going to turn up in some like, you know, catfish situation?
Emma: No, it's wild.
Jay: Yeah, it's Yeah,
Emma: Oddly sometimes it takes more work me trying to do things myself than through the system.
Jay: Yeah, I know. You did a great job.
Emma: Thanks.
Jay: But- Yeah, those hard questions that you asked yourself. I mean, what was it that gave you courage to walk a path where you don't know the next three steps, when you have a entire career lined up on the other side? You have an amazing career. Every movie you've been in has been magical and amazing. It's when you look at your portfolio of choices like they're all brilliant performances. They're great films. They're- and you only would have more of that. So, it's also not like you're leaving a career that's kind of had its, do you know what I mean? It's at a place where no business-oriented person could imagine why. And so what gives you courage when one side is so clear and one side is not clear at all?
Emma: Again, I'm going to tell the honest version of this story. I'd love to tell you that it was like this incredible courage and determination I have inside of me. And yes, there's there's part of that. Not going to completely erase my role in all of this, but I think a big part was that it was coming to a point with my health and nervous system where I was starting to hit a point of not no return, but like it's interesting. I eat well. I do yoga. I do medit- I do all the things, right? But I think I was using those as a way of mitigating how much stress I was under as opposed to actually what those things are really for are compasses and points towards our truth. And I- I was using them as a way of like bolstering myself and allowing myself to continue down a path that actually was kind of wrecking me. And I think it was just like my immune system couldn't pretend anymore. I was on seven or eight packets of an antibiotic every year because my immune system was so low that I would just constantly be getting a- just constantly be getting sick and a sinus infection and whatever else.
Jay: I have no idea.
Emma: My body just started being like no. I went from being someone who I would say I still handle stress and pressure well and in the moment I could always do it, but the cost afterwards was starting to get more and more serious to the point where it was like I'd always turned down or actually I remember I was in my early 20ies when a publicist first offered me a beta blocker. I was nervous before a carpet and it's the only other time I ever took anything and I was fine for the two hours after I took it and then I got back to the room and when my feelings came back to me I was like over wrought with grief and feeling of having blocked it. And so I'd always- and after that I never allowed anyone to give me anything again even though I was offered things multiple times and doctors wanting to give me things for jet lag and for sleep and for nerves and "oh everyone takes it" this is you know there's no shame in this or whatever but I just- I felt like in order to keep going I was going to have to make a decision of like are you okay with being low level, unwell and medicated essentially and I just knew that wasn't a choice for me. So in a way I have my body to thank because my body just- I didn't want to ignore my body anymore. And it didn't matter how many silent retreats I went on or how much yoga I did or like what new thing I did to try and take care of myself. It- my body was done. And that was- then I think when I went away and found a relationship with myself and my practice and just having trust and faith in a way that I never had before. And I started listening more carefully to like these little whispers of like, "oh, like maybe this should be the thing you do" or like even coming and doing this of like "I think you should go and do this podcast." Just listening to myself for clues basically and listening to the universe, whatever that means. But I never had that before. I never had. I never knew how to listen for those things before. I truly went away and had nothing for a while. So that was probably the the best result of of all of that.
Jay: Yeah. And I think it still takes so much courage because it does even though you didn't see it that way and you may not have noticed it, it still takes so much courage to listen to your body because it is easy to keep medicating in all the ways to break it anyway. and to push it to the edges and the limits of its ability and because you're so addicted or intoxicated by the success or whatever it may be.
Emma: I guess the courageous part was just knowing I didn't want to numb out. That was the point at which it got too big of a cost 'cause I was like, okay, if I feel like I need to be- I'm at the point where the price is too high now.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah, I loved what you said about when they're meant to be compassed to our truth and not like this band-aid pacification of and-
Emma: I've been highly really effectively using those band-aids. They will carry you far. Like I had a lot of practice.
Jay: I think that's how they're presented now too. Like it's become this and that's why when you said that I think you- it's almost like I'm trying to think of a good metaphor but the one that's coming to my mind. It's almost like driving to the grocery store in a sports car. And it's like a sports car is made for this high-speed track. Like that's what it's for. but you're using it just to drive 25 miles an hour to the grocery store. And it's like, no, it's it has so much more capability and ability to take you somewhere phenomenally, but you're using it for a really simple basic task.
Emma: Not going to lie, though. I remember when I did my first Vipassana and sat long enough and I went to my teacher and I was like what have I done?
Jay: Go on tell me about this. Go on.
Emma: What have I done?
Jay: What do you mean? In what way?
Emma: Because in a way it was almost like I realized once you start paying attention to your truth, it's very difficult to go back. And in some way it felt like I was like, "Oh my god, I don't know if I like this. I don't know if I like this.
Jay: So good.
Emma: Maybe I want to go back." And once you step through it, you kind of can't go back. And I remember him looking at me calmly and saying, "Could you even go back now even if you wanted to?" And I was like, "I guess not. I guess this is the path I've chosen to walk." And to some degree, in the same way that getting cast as Hermione and like making my peace with the way that that changed my life were my marching orders, I think trusting that that's all I can do at this point. I'm just holding on for dear life.
Jay: Yeah. It's like the mafia. Once you're in, you know too much
Emma: Yes! True! I'll never forget that moment. I'll never forget that moment. I was like, "Oh no, this is un-doable now, isn't it?" And he was like, "Kind of. Yeah". I was like, "Oh no, it's so uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable being honest with myself." And then I have to be honest with other people as well. This is a nightmare. Why did I do this? Why am I here? Oh god
Jay: I'm just imagining you on the retreat like coming out of it and just having that reaction. It's so funny. So good. That needs to get added to the play.
Emma: Okay.
Jay: That moment needs to be added to the play.
Emma: Actually, yeah, I wrote something about my doing the doing the 10 day of pastor* (*not sure about that word) for the first time 'cause my god that is such a it's such a roller coaster. Yeah. It's such a roller coaster.
Jay: Anything you want to share about?
Emma: Sure. Yeah. I don't want to bore you to death, but I mean I think what was funny was like I have this picture that I drew of day two and it's like green and pink and there's butterflies on it and it literally says, I think it says, this is so embarrassing. It says "I am beautiful." So embarrassing. I just felt like in I was like oh my god this is blows. I was like riding this wave of like meditation ecstasy basically. Whatever dopamine hit I was getting from that was wild. I just felt unbelievable. And then I surfed that wave straight into some kind of brick wall of oh my god like all the things in life that you think are outside of you actually live inside you. And so even when you're like in this beautiful place on this gorgeous meditation retreat with all of these like wonderful enlightened people, everything starts to drive you crazy. And even the like salt shaker and the pepper pot in front of you, you start to take on the shapes of your real life and you realize that your mind just starts creating all this drama for you even though there's nothing going on literally. And it was just it was such a wild experience to kind of sit there and be like, "Oh my god. I'm the one creating all of my own drama. This is a nightmare. It's me. It's me. I'm the problem." And um I was like, "I can't stay here. I can't do this. This is way too hard. Living with myself and my own thoughts is going to dri-. This is unbearable. I can't do this." That was a really big learning and one I have to remember all the time is like I, as a perfectionist, which again is a is a kind of violence on yourself. I would try to like shame and blame myself into- and like kind of shake myself up and give myself these kinds of like talkings to, to make myself do stuff. And sometimes to be honest with you, they work in the short term and in the long term they fail you miserably. Like they just do not work. The only way that I have learned to change my patterns to show up for myself better to change in the ways I want to change and grow is to be loving towards myself. So getting to be in the room with that person at that moment was a massive gift.
Jay: It's amazing. I love it how someone that you can attend a class with can become such a big teacher for you when you allow it to be and, you know, someone who wasn't the leader or the guide of the group can have such an impact on you. Did you want to- speaking about love, did you want to share the- is it the practice that you went through recently with is that what you-
Emma: The ring?
Jay: Yeah, the ring.
Emma: Yeah. Oh my god, that's sweet of you to remember. I mentioned that- yeah, I guess having gone through this odyssey which has been the last I guess 7 years. I was like okay I kind of feel like I've got to a place and this will continue forever where I want to celebrate where I ended up after I kind of left land. It felt like- and yeah I did a ritual with- or like I guess just a day of celebrating with my friends and chosen family and they each bought me this ring which has 22 petals on it and each of them bought one and I've just never owned anything so valuable in my life because I- to me it represents the life that I've built which was the one that I really wanted which was one that was made up of community and my roots and faith and trust. And in some funny way, it signals to me that even though I have no outward signs of my success, save for this crazy one-woman play I've written, I don't even have my degree yet. And it signals to me that for me, I achieved what I wanted to achieve for myself.
Jay: Wow.
Emma: So, that's pretty cool. And I love that every time I look down at my finger, I can like see all of the faces of the people who bought it for me. You're amazing at holding space. You're so kind. The amount of people who've probably sat in this chair and been as emotional as I have. And you don't turn away. It's amazing.
Jay: It's easy with you.
Emma: That's very kind. Thank you.
Jay: It's really easy because it's really heartfelt and you've shared so much of me before today and today that I felt like you shared- you created that space for me to sit with you before today and today. Yeah.
Emma: Wow.
Jay: What makes a real friend? So you said you had 22- 22?
Emma: 22 Yeah.
Jay: 22 friends. What what what defines a good friend for you?
Emma: Oh my god. For me, I've never killed anyone in my life and I have no intention of killing anyone. But like is the person who you can call when you're like that would help you carry the dead body across the floor. You know what I mean? You're like the person you call me like "shit I think I've done this thing and I need you to like either tell me I'm crazy or tell me I'm not crazy or tell me the truth or help me fix it or I don't know that-" I think it's like the people that- God. it's the people that you just do not have to have graces with and who you can just be like- this just happened and it's such a disaster and- yeah and I don't know people I think also who can handle your truths, your real truths and vulnerabilities like they're sacred and with care. I think that's been very important for me because I think maybe part of my bravado is I'll make a joke of or I'll be brave about things I don't feel very brave about and it takes someone who knows me quite well to go "she's making a joke about this. She's like actually dying inside and I kind of know that and like I'm going to hold her through it." Yeah. I think real friends are the ones when you're in a really tight corner and not just that we'll like show up begrudgingly but be like what are we dealing with today and like maybe we'll enjoy that or see that as like an honor and a privilege actually. I think that's been a big learning for me. And it's an honor and a gift when someone asks you for help or when they need you. And I think I used to feel really embarrassed about needing anything from anyone or asking for help. I used to see it as like a great shame, like something I was really embarrassed to do. And now I see it as like I guess like knowing how I feel when someone asks me for help that I really love. and how amazing it feels to be able to be there for someone else. I try to remind myself that when I'm feeling like I couldn't possibly burden someone else with something. I remind myself and I do remember how good it felt that someone asked you to show up for them and that you got to be there for them at their worst or darkest. And so I think coming to understand like- I think I also confused codependency or like- I don't know, I didn't- we are so interdependent as a species and like we- there's no shame in needing and wanting other people. I didn't understand. I didn't understand. And I do. Yeah.
Jay: I love the answer. I love how it started as if I ever kill someone.
Emma: Which I wouldn't. I swear. And I haven't. I won't.
Jay: So good. It's so good. It's so funny. It's like a I did not expect you to say that. It was so good. So surprising. I love it. But no, it's so true. Like when I left the monastery and even though I was with my wife and we go into relationship and we're dating, I used to always feel like I didn't- I always- I had this false mindset because of my immaturity and understand what being a monk was. It was in this independent way of not needing or wanting anyone and that we were in a relationship and it was great, but like that wasn't and I held that immaturity and I probably verbalized it to her too many times for too long in the beginning of our relationship. I have no idea why she stayed. But it took recently. It was so recent. This was like maybe a couple of months ago. Well, I realized that I shouldn't have said that years ago, but then a couple of months ago, my wife said to me, she goes, "You're my calm. Like, you calm my nervous system." And I was like, "You're my joy. Like, you bring joy to every part of my life." And it was like that exchange was so needed and so powerful after having for so long feeling like, "Oh, I have everything I need anyway." And I do. I genuinely believe that. But it's what you said is that we're
interdependent for a reason.
Emma: Yes. We coregulate.
Jay: My wife adds so much joy. It's like saying I don't need salt added on to this meal. And like the meal is great. And it's like I don't need any more salt. And it's like, well no, if you add a little bit of salt it would make it a bit better.
Emma: Way better.
Jay: Way better. And it's like- and we kind of live in that life of like I don't want to add anything to this. And it's almost a defense mechanism because we're so scared that there may not be someone to add.
Emma: Oh my god. I think-
Jay: And I've lived there. So I that yeah that resonated very strongly.
Emma: I think that was the one of the other gifts actually of getting to a point where- 'cause I used to be this like "I'm so tough and independent and I can do anything" person and being at the point where I was like shit, I actually think I'm not okay. And my body forcing me to ask other people for help was the biggest gift of my life because it brought me so much closer to other people. And I learned that not only is it not a burden, it's genuinely, yeah, a privilege and a gift sometimes to have someone ask you that question or like be honest about the ways that they need you. And it's crazy how long it takes to learn these things.
Jay: Yeah, absolutely. You've done so much inner work and self work. I'm wondering what's the work you've been avoiding? What's the work you've been putting off?
Emma: Wow.
Jay: If there is any.
Emma: I think it's probably something around, now, tying it all together. I think in some ways me being here today is me trying to do the piece I've been avoiding maybe which is like okay you know you want to show up as a full integrated whole self and not compartmentalize and split and fragment yourself in a way that keeps you safe. And that compartmentalization did keep me safe and felt very necessary for a long time because I was trying to keep some walls up where I could nurture myself and learn and grow and then be ready to share those pieces. But I think it's probably figuring out how to avoid the pieces that I know aren't good for me and that are genuinely just toxic. But to have the courage to show up now in whatever form that is and trust again whether that's a person or it's making something or it's kind of "okay. Have you learned enough that you can integrate and and share now that you've done this in a work on your own?"
Jay: Yeah, that that feels that resonates.
Emma: Okay, good.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to verbalize. It's almost like it is that you've been private for so long.
Emma: Yeah.
Jay: And you've been working in private on your fascinations, your curiosities, your friends, your inner work, and then to actually come out and talk about what that period has been like publicly is something you can keep pushing off and-
Emma: And maybe the how that ties into partnership is that I've realized actually that some of the people I've been attracting on the dating front think they're dating some previous version of me who still exists in some ways but who isn't actually who I am now. And I realized I was like, "Oh, like I'm still getting sent people who are seeing someone who was part of the picture but but not the whole picture." And it's starting to feel uncomfortable to not feel like I'm telling this part of the story, if that makes sense.
Jay: It's even hard for you to be like, "Well, these are the parts that are still there and these are like it's not didactic process of like it's not an equation where you can go, well, these are the parts that I've kept. These are the parts that are not like- it doesn't work like that.
Emma: No, it doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. But I'm still getting requests that want to drag me a little bit more into a version of myself who was great and she was doing great stuff. But I think there's a part of me now that really feels like being able to speak to you one-on-one in this kind of setting as opposed to what I used to do, which would be an enormous audience and there'd be like 300 people there. And like of course there's intimacy you can find in a room like that, but like the truth is it's really difficult to find the kind of depth and the kind of connections that I know are the ones that nourish me personally. And it's different for everyone, but that just aren't allowing me to have the thing that I know is the real thing that I'm actually seeking. And what I used to go into lots of other environments seeking and thinking I'd be able to get and keep and just not not being able to find.
Jay: Emma, something I wanted to ask you about that's difficult and challenging because it's something you spoke about earlier as to being such a big part of your life, an important part of your life, but recently there's been so many conversations and comments directly from JK Rowling, whether it's her saying she'd never forgive you for your views or the fact that when she was asked what ruins the movies for her, she named yourself and some of your co-stars. And I imagine that's an extremely difficult thing when you've been a part of someone's world, when you've felt connected to their work and then for it now to kind of be a full 180 and for someone to publicly say these things that can be quite extremely hurtful actually. How do you think about that?
Emma: I really don't believe that by having had that experience and holding the love and support and views that I have mean that I can't and don't treasure Jo and the person that I had personal experiences with. I will never believe that one negates the other and that my experience of that person I don't get to keep and cherish. To come back to our earlier thing like I just don't think these things are either or. I think it's my deepest wish that- I hope people who don't agree with my opinion will love me and I hope I can keep loving people who I don't necessarily share the same opinion with. And I think that's a very very important way for me that I need to be able to move through life. I just really- I guess I, to circle back around, I really do believe in having conversations and that those are really important and that- I don't know. I guess where I've landed is it's not so much what we say or what we believe but very often how we say it. That's really important and that's really frustrating and not what you want to hear when you're really angry and upset with someone. But I don't know. I just see this world right now where we seem to be giving permission for this kind of like throwing out of people or that people are disposable. And I just think that's- I will always think that's wrong. I always- I just believe that no one's disposable. And everyone as far as possible, whatever the conversation is, should and can be treated with at the very least dignity and respect.
Jay: Thank you for challenging us and pushing us. Yeah, it takes a lot to- I think that's what we're all being challenged to do is try and hold two truths at once. And yes, those two truths don't have to be complimentary, but they they can stand at the same time. Yeah.
Emma: I think the thing I'm most upset about is that a conversation was never made possible.
Jay: So you remain open for that dialogue.
Emma: Yeah. And I always will. I believe in that. I believe in that completely. I believe in that completely. I just don't- Yeah. I just don't want to say anything that like continues to weaponize a really toxic debate and conversation, which is maybe why I don't- well it is why I don't comment or like continue to comment. Not because I don't care about her or about the issue, but because I just- the way that the conversation is being had feels really painful to me. And so that's why that's why that decision-
Jay: Yeah, I really I really appreciate that mindset and deeply deeply feel like if people are challenged to go there themselves like it takes a lot to think that way and feel that way. It's what healing really requires across, you know, around the world. And I can't imagine how many young people who look up to you and people who look up to you will feel the same way to recognize that that's how we engage. That's what we look for. We- It's not that we're trying to make everything pretty and perfect. It's that we're willing to engage in an uncomfortable conversation.
Emma: Yes. Her kindness and words of encouragement and that steadfastness that- and also honestly just as a young woman to- for her to have written that character, created that world, given me an opportunity which to be honest barely exists in the history of English literature. How can I- there's just no world in which I could ever cancel her out or cancel that out for anything. It has to remain true. It is true. And this is where this like holding of these- I just don't know what else to do other than hold these two seemingly incompatible things together at the same time and just hope maybe they will one day resolve or like co-join themselves and maybe accept that they never will but that they can both still be true and I can love her. I can know she loved me. I can be grateful to her. I can know the things that she said are true and there can be this whole other thing and my job feels like to just to hold all of it. But the bigger thing is just what she's done will never be taken away from me.
Jay: Thanks for setting such a powerful
example.
Emma: Thank you.
Jay: Yeah, that beautiful F. Scott Fitzgerald quote that the sign of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time and still retain the ability to function." He goes on to say, "one should therefore be able to see that the world is hopeless but still be determined to make it otherwise." And it's like that's
Emma: F. Scott Fitzgerald said that. Wow. He ran deeper than I knew. Wow. That's No one ever part. That's incredible.
Jay: Yeah, it's one of my favorite
.
Emma: Wow. Well done you for remembering that second part. Wow. You've made me like Fitzgerald a lot. I mean, I liked him, don't get me wrong. Like-
Jay: Yeah. Yeah. To me it's one of my favorite ideas.
Emma: That's so good.
Jay: Yeah. It's so good.
Emma: That's so good.
Jay: Yeah. Emma, for someone who has tried to stay out of the public eye, you've still been vocal about
causes you believe in things that you stand for. And that always seems to get attention and reaction. And so when you shared online your solidarity for Palestine, the former Israeli UN ambassador Danny
Danon called you an anti-semite and his tweet said "10 points from Gryffindor for being an anti-semite." What goes through your mind when you you see that?
Emma: This happened a few years ago now. I think what concerned me at the time was the way that that label was being used. And I think even now I see that playing out where we aren't- people don't feel like they can talk about what's happening safely. This duality created where we don't seem able to care about the victims of terrorism and care about the genocide that's happening in Palestine at the same time. And both things have to be allowed to be true. You have to be allowed to care about 50,000 civilians dying, 17,000 of which are children, and care deeply about the victims of this awful terrorist attack.
Jay: I appreciate you sharing that and yeah, it seems like that belief system you have in yes, and this and together it kind of runs through so many areas of your life. personal and beyond.
Emma: Yes. I think that's I think that's true. I think that's true.
Jay: I hope that you've felt you've been able to share the parts of yourself and the version of yourself that you wanted to and intended to.
Emma: I hope so. I feel very hot and I feel a little bit like is this room even real? Like are we- is this like a Goddard* (*not sure about this name) play where we're like in some sort of existential room that doesn't exist? Honestly, I feel a little bit like that. But as long as this was real and these are these four walls are actually here, then yes, I do feel that way. And I- or like I've done everything I can in a context that's still- I can still see cameras and lights and I know there's a person behind me, but I feel to the extent to which I can humanly do that I've shown up for myself and for you in a way and the invitation that this podcast is and the work that you do in the world, I've answered that invitation. So, I feel good about that.
Jay: And I've got I know it's a bit hot, but I've got a couple of questions I want to end on. We end on with every episode.
Emma: Yes!
Jay: Um these are your final five. They have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum, but I will probably ignore that rule as I always do. So, question number one, is we asked these to everyone who's ever been on the show. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
Emma: I'm going to cheat slightly if you'll allow it. I read Emergent Strategy (affiliated link) by Adrian Maree Brown. It was given to me as a gift by my friend Anne-Marie for my 30th birthday. And I think that being a good pious Protestant English girl, I really believed that if I worked hard enough and if I was kind of saintly enough that someone would see my good deeds and all of my hard work and like give me the sticker, you know, give me the star. And so a kind of martyrdom was part of- my sort of- what I understood was important in my- and I think reading her book and reading about pleasure activism which is sort of the idea that like anything that you need to- that you want to sustain eg justice eg- You need it to be easy and you need it to be pleasurable in a way because that's what's going to mean that you'll be able to do it for a long time. Part of my burnout was that I wasn't prioritizing pleasure and joy as the kind of like underpinning for even some of the harder, more somber, more cerebral things that I was doing. And I think changed my life. And I think we also have a model particularly within activism and in lots of spaces that like this kind of sole individual charismatic leader and I like you, you know, my heroes always Martin Luther King and Gandhi and you just saw this sort of like solitary person that was doing that and I think if I could go back and do anything differently it would be that when I embarked on some of the public activism that I did, I wouldn't go in the way I did. I would go in with what I have now, which is not just like an activist community. Like I have friends who can give me feedback and who I can talk to and who I feel that I'm not doing the work alone, solo. However that might look. Yeah. I guess heroicism and martyrdom the way that it was looked maybe I just don't believe that's how we'll get the job done anymore. Anything anything good will get done. So I think that book and I think that idea that revolutionized my approach.
Jay: I love that. Yeah, that's a great answer. It's beautiful. I want to read that book now. I haven't read it.
Emma: You have to. You have to have her on the podcast.
Jay: Yeah, I should. Yeah, absolutely. Question number two. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?
Emma: Oh.
Jay: So much.
Emma: How long have you got? God, mostly just like I think a lot of stuff around toughen up, bottle it up, deal with that later, you know, just like subtle versions of like, well, maybe tell the truth, but just not all of it. Just like maybe just like tell a little bit of it, but not the whole thing, you know? 'Cause the truth is- the problem with like telling three quarters of the truth is that then you're sort of in this constant peeling and unpeeling of yourself where you're sort of trying to do it but you're not quite doing it. And I don't know, I think a lot of advice around that. Also anyone that tells you not to do what you love terrible advice doing what you love will lead you where you need to go even if you can't see it at the time. yeah. Yeah. I think about terrible terrible beauty tips and advice given around like, I don't know, just like oh god all again like back to our previous conversation all the ridiculous things that you are encouraged to try and do as a woman like fake tan and I mean it's hilarious. I actually right now it might be like well covered up, but I accidentally had a bottle of fake tan in my bathroom and in my jet lag state last night I thought I was putting moisturizer on, but now I have like these horrific fake tan marks on my legs and feet. I guess I'm just thinking about just like oh my god. And recently I was like, "Okay, I want to get my teeth whitened." And I looked like Ross from Friends when he'd had that awful fake tanning accident because they were just way too white. And then I had to go back for two other visits to get the dentist to put my teeth back to my normal teeth. So I guess I was just laughing thinking about like worse advice is just like don't ever listen to beauty technicians or anyone advising you to do anything weird to your body, face, appearance. Just don't listen. Don't take the bait. Just don't do it.
Jay: So good. Best answer. Best answer. Question number three. How are you now going to choose work, projects or activism differently?
Emma: Does the person that's asking me to do something with them- can they confidently look at me and say that they care about me far more than what we're producing? And and do I care about them that way? One of my favorite people I worked with, Stephen Chbosky. I remember him leaving what was a very productive rehearsal or script meeting with Logan Lerman, Ezra Miller and I and he was like, I need to go and be with my wife now. And we were like, I don't think I've ever heard- I mean, at that point, I certainly had ever heard a director in my career say they needed to leave for a personal reason or for a personal relationship, but I worked far harder for Stephen than I worked for any other director because I think I was able to be a far- give a far more vulnerable performance in that film because I felt that he really cared about me beyond the product of the film. And I want to work with people like that who- for whom the process is as important as the outcome and the people that are part of it are more important than whatever the outcome is. I think this is a really difficult thing that I see everywhere in the world right now is that we treat objects and things like they're sacred and we don't treat people like they're the sacred thing. And that switch- Yeah. I think it causes a lot of pain.
Jay: Emma, something that you told me when we were speaking on the phone was that you've been working with young people on helping them with some of the challenges that you've faced in your own career and your own life. And I remember being so touched by that and I wanted to learn more and for you to share it because I just think it's really special and I was sharing it with some of my team before you arrived and and everyone was quite drawn to it. So-
Emma: As a young person, and you know, as I've basically shared over however long it's been that we've been speaking, I just really needed to be having more conversations with people my own age and people that were older than me. I feel like I tried to navigate so many problems on my own and I just didn't know who to really speak to and I was speaking to such a narrow group of people about what I was trying to navigate and I just- I think that working with young people and giving them each other and also the space, the reason, the excuses to talk about the things that we don't talk about or create spaces for has been the most gratifying, the most purposeful and of service I felt in a long time because it turns out pretty often that a lot of the things that we're struggling with, other people are struggling with as well. And so in a way going back around and trying to put out into the world a lot of the things that I knew I needed as a young person and didn't get. It's been the best, most gratifying thing. And I feel really lucky to be in a position and in a place where I can say and know like I've kind of done this treacherous journey. And I think that- I think I might have some ideas about what might be needed for someone to come out the other side of that safely. So it feels good to be of use.
Jay: Yeah. I love that. Fifth and final question. We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
Emma: Oh wow. One law. Okay. There's a couple of contenders. I want to run you through one of them with you. One is going to be.
Jay: We'll vote on them.
Emma: Okay. Great. Perfect. One would be around the importance of telling the truth or like speaking your truth or just because I feel like so much so much chaos is caused by people not being sure whether or not they should or it's a good idea to or I think that would be a pretty amazing one. Another contender I mean it's the obvious one is treat other people as you would like to be treated. That would obviously solve a lot of problems as well.
Jay: I like that one you gave.
Emma: The last one?
Jay: Yeah, the first one. The first one.
Emma: Oh, the first one. Yeah. The truth. Yeah. I guess it took me a long time and probably through doing my yoga teacher training is speaking truth with kindness is one of the first niyamas, right? Very disappointed. I can't remember what the word is in-
Jay: Not Satya?
Emma: Maybe. Yeah. Speaking the truth with kindness. There's an amazing quote which actually was given to me recently by a friend which is "the truth without kindness is brutality and kindness without truth is manipulation."
Jay: Say that again.
Emma: "Truth without kindness is brutality and kindness without truth is manipulation." And so when I say like tell your truth, I don't mean going around like just being awful to everyone. I mean like telling the microscopic truth and like having those being willing to have a tolerance for those conversations. One of my favorite metaphors, I actually wrote about this recently for being in a relationship with anyone is like you're in- it's in a way it's a dance. It's a fight. Like I think about boxing in the sense of like who is going to go down to the mat with you and like not tap out because being honest about what's really going on is uncomfortable and it's risky as we talked about earlier. You risk every time you tell the truth of maybe losing someone that you love because you don't know how they're going to respond to whatever your truth is. But I think to live that way creates the intimacy and connection that I think we long for and also like sets people free in a way. You and them. Truth. Yeah. Truth with kindness. I think that's I think that's going to have to be my choice. My factor of deduction.
Jay: Yeah. The Bhagavad Gita gives four principles for truth with kindness. The first is what you speak should be truthful. The second is it should be beneficial to all. The third is it shouldn't agitate the minds of others. And the fourth is it should be aligned with eternal wisdom and timeless wisdom.
Emma: That's beautiful and perfect because yeah, I think there's truths which are- if they're not beneficial that do just agitate. I think that's-
Jay: And it's not about not saying it. It's the idea that you've thought so much about how you say it. It's not that you've sanitized it because that's the modern day version. The Gita is not telling you to sanitize or be silenced. It's telling you to filter your thought to make sure that the way you say it is digestible. For everyone who's going to hear it and therefore it actually has transformative power. It's not that it's not provocative or that it doesn't- It's just that you're not saying it in a way to trigger or get
a reaction. You're saying in a way that hits someone like an arrow of truth and goes, I have to change. Because that person has been so mindful of how they spoke.
Emma: Oh my god, that's incredible. That's everything I've just been trying to say about- Yeah. If everyone was mindful enough about how they spoke their truth that it could just go straight to the heart.
Jay: Rather than hit the ego along the way and the mind. And that's why we can't talk because everything we say triggers someone's mind or their ego and then everything we say does it back. And so now we're having a mind and ego debate which isn't the one that goes all the way to tap, you know, in your-
Emma: We're so focused on defending whatever the thing is that we feel that we need to defend that we just can't-
Jay: Can't get to the heart.
Emma: No, you can't hit the heart. So good. So good,
Jay: Emma. Thank you for the longest recorded conversation in On Purpose history. We had to change the cards, the cameras. We had to like- and we haven't paused. Just so everyone knows, just so everyone knows, me and Emma have not moved. So, we didn't take a break. There was no bathroom break. There was no break of whatever kind. We both sat- there was no coffee break. We have sat in these seats for the entire duration that you watch this show or listen to it. And so Emma, you have the, you know, to your competitive and winning spirit, you have the award for longest ever podcast recording.
Emma: I don't know whether to be mortified or like seriously embarrassed or like think- feel like this is some kind of victory of some kind. I guess we've sat here for like and not moved for more than 3 hours.
Jay: Really? Yeah.
Emma: Surely.
Jay: It's amazing.
Emma: That's amazing. Well, thank you for- Thank you so much. This has been such an amazing conversation.
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«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 440 of 440youtuber Critical Drinker latest video sums it up perfectly. She doesn't really stand for anything she never did. She is actress. It's all PR and pretend. Hollywood baby. We don't know the real Emma and never will. I as a fan knew that years ago and accepted this. Maybe some of you will now.
Are you serious? She twists the reactions to her own attacks into “attacks” against her, while hiding her constant hostility toward a minority and anyone who disagrees with her. She leaves out what really happened before Emma and so many others felt forced to show support for those she targets. No one has attacked her personally, people are simply standing with those under attack.
Didn't Rowling suffer severe Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in her twenties? (I'm not "Mental Health Shaming" here, I had the same myself and at the same age) Here's the thing - although, with me, it was chronic in my twenties it's nowhere near as bad as it was - but it never truly goes, and the only real defence is to know it's there. And Rowlings "Hyper fixation" as a previous commenter so aptly put it, as well as her outburst towards Emma and the others online, purely for disagreeing with her and perceiving it as a personal attack, seems to me exactly the type of thing that someone (such as myself) with OCD would focus and (over)respond to.
While strongly disagreeing with Rowlings views, I was more than prepared to give her the benefit of her views and behaviour as being a result of mental ill health, but considering that tweet, seemingly designed to give maximum hurt and encourage attacks towards (specifically) Emma and Dan (compared with the supposed personal attack of Emma's obviously spontaneous and humorous "I'm here for all the witches" comment at the Bafta's - the only time she's ever, even remotely come close to refering to Rowling publicly - and even that isn't a certain reference to Rowling - Emma had been vocal about her support of trans men and women, long before that.) Well, basically, OCD or not... Rowling can go f*** herself.
Critical drinker is an incel armchair fash key board artist
Ppl Taking opinions from far right youtubers as serious is what's wrong with the world
Critical drinker also described feminism as cancer he can get f*ked
Will be sure never to watch any of it.
One of those people who cry because theres women in star wars actual man child
Unlikely, she’ll go about living her life as she’s been doing
She says they were under financial pressure and couldn’t afford the school - that’s different to poor is a likely scenario given the divorce and how expensive that would be and it was a very nasty divorce.
Given Emma’s social following being enormously bigger. JK’s unhinged fans and Emma’s history of stalkers and threats after the likes of the UN speech, I’d very much believe that Emma has received far more threats and online abuse over time than JK has. JK also didn’t grow up with it like Emma did.
Honestly I’ve been thinking about this for a while… We (the population of the three countries I hold citizenship in, and given how my spelling of certain words… yes one of the is the U.S.) swung so far left/liberal that eventually the pendulum of society’s beliefs and opinions was bound to swing right/conservative. Because I won’t lie, with the rise of far-right YouTube/ podcasters (Andrew T*** and Charlie K***) and the whole “ I don’t owe people anything”(not even general politeness) has been insane to witness. And i know that other countries have people who’ve noticed the shift as well… Because please tell me why R****** was agreeing with (convicted felon, dementia ridden, candle, mctaco) T**** about his polices on the LGBTQ+… And got defended against people on Twitter who “hurt her feelings” by calling out her terfdom by Pu*** and Elon M***. Because I’m sorry but if I found myself agreeing with any of those men and getting defensive by two of them… I’d rethink my choices so hard you’d think I’m spiraling. And now there’s people who think a far-right incel who thinks feminism is a cancer (Critical Thinker) has formes the correct assesment of somebody who still supports a marginalized community matter how much the media in one of the countries she resides in gives her shit for it. Which unfortunately isn’t surprising as British media has been leaning conservative for as long as I can remember.
You can create the forum then and I'll join in.
The "speech" you're talking about is a three second long throwaway line she made while presenting a BAFTA award three years ago, in which she said "I'm here for all the witches, by the way."
And Rowling, in her deluded hate, took that as an attack. This podcast interview is quite literally the first time Emma has said anything about the end of her friendship with JKR.
Some stuff:
1. Can we just ban Rowling defenders? Not publish their comments? Probably not, but it'd be nice.
2. FUUUUUUUCK the Critical Drinker. Nobody else has fucked him, since he's an incel, so he'd probably appreciate it.
3. Emma's never attacked Rowling. She has publicly disagreed with Rowling's hateful and vile position on a minority of marginalized human beings. She's never called Rowling names or condemned her personally. Her "speech" was a statement of solidarity with trans people. It was at worst a minor poke at Rowling. Which, if Rowling had a skin thicker than rice paper, she would have laughed off.
4. Rowling is a toxic narcissist who believes any public disagreement with her position is a direct attack on her. So she howls that the Potter leads are attacking her, when really they're just making their own opinions on an issue clear.
5. Rowling had plenty of privilege herself, even when she was "poor." She's full of dogshit.
6. I did not know that about the Dragon School's tuition. That said, it's still a renowned and well-known school. And her Dad still owned a vineyard. If he was worried about money for his kids, he could always have sold his vineyard. That's privilege.
7. Again, being privileged isn't a sin or a crime. It's just what Emma is and it colors her thinking. But clearly she's a good person. I've known people without much privilege who suck.
8. Emma is undeniably the winner of this "exchange" with Rowling. Even the people who were mad at her about "fence sitting" sided with her after Rowling's screed. She played this perfectly. Be the reasonable, emotionally available Millennial, and let the Boomer shriek herself back into the Bad Guy role.
Well, Boy George just defended Emma using Chinese astrology... And while 2026 is the year of the fire horse... Emma is a metal horse... Anyway, here are some characteristics of their Chinese zodiac signs...
Rowling: strategic, intelligent, creative, determined, indecisive, secretive, overly cautious, and prone to overthinking
Emma: honest, kind-hearted, decisive, strong leadership qualities, stubborn, people-pleasing tendencies, impulsive, and brutally honest
Let's forget about JKR for a while and rather discuss Emma Watson her stance on Gaza and Israel, because it fell somehow flat. Reflected or not? What's the issues to criticize about it?
You can create the forum then and I'll join in
Ok, just point me to the direction of how to do it
Eden, what is pottershots? Never heard of it did you run it?
FYI Youtubers are also chasing clicks for money..
"Given Emma’s social following being enormously bigger. JK’s unhinged fans and Emma’s history of stalkers and threats after the likes of the UN speech, I’d very much believe that Emma has received far more threats and online abuse over time than JK has. JK also didn’t grow up with it like Emma did. " This is well said... Emma has probably been the most targeted actress of her generation facing relentless misogyny, sexualization, and vile attacks, even for something as simple as retweeting #welcome refugee
Rowling took that as an attack because at that time that speech was totally uncalled for. Because no asked her to make a statement. Rowling was getting hate and threats. And Emma after that speech sent her a shoddy note, implying what she meant.
"is a likely scenario given the divorce and how expensive that would be and it was a very nasty divorce."
How do you know?
I have no clue how to do it XD
She said "I'm here for all the witches". How is that uncalled for? Seriously, how thin skinned do you need to be to see that as an attack? Meanwhile JKR was calling trans people rapists, but somehow that's not uncalled for?
It was joke reply to something rebel wilson said ffs
Eden so how do I do it
It's uncalled for because it was out of place at the moment. None was discussing Trans issues with Emma. None invited her to speak on any Trans issues. All the while JK was recieving death threats and other types of threats from supposedly people who were fighting for trans rights and etc. of which Emma was also a part. Would you please show the place where JK called Trans people rapists. As far as I can remember a convicted or accused rapist tried to use trans ideology and identify as a woman to get out of the punitive action that he was facing and JK was calling that out. However if you have any fresh information to share please do
Emmd said “I’m here for all the witches,” but the media twisted it into “bar one,” making it sound like a direct dig at J.K. In reality, she said “by the way“. I honestly think that’s why Emma sent the note because the press misrepresented what she originally meant. She probably just wanted to clarify. Can people please stop acting like it was some big speech directed at JKR?
I don't know.
this anon talking about a "big speech" Emma did against JKR and about trans it's imagining things or it's believing everything JKR wrote (if you follow Emma you KNOW several remarks JKR did were made up or devoided of context)
she never directly mentioned JKR up until now in this podcast. All the other times were when people interviewing her asked about it and even then she didn't mentioned JKR directly, just the trans issues around the world as a whole.
And from that pathetic long tweet from JKR it's pretty clear that JKR considers ANY FORM of talk in favour of trans issues a betrayal, a "speech" and an attack against her.
Also, Daniel Radcliffe said the same thing (although with different words) about JKR and she didn't bat a eye.
And the thing on the award show that JKR said was a "inflammatory speech against her" was the "I'm here for all the witches btw" joke Emma did after Rebel Wilson made a joke previously about witches because Emma was going to announce the winner.
so this anon that want to defend JKR at all costs it's:
1- making it all up. literally talking about things that never happend like the speech thing and no, repeating the same thing when people pointed out the lie it's not "proof"
2- being dishonest when it claims that Emma attacked JKR, she never did even mentioned that woman in her defense of trans people before. This podcast was the first time she mentioned JKR directly.
the whole selling point of this podcast episode with Emma was: "she was years in silence and now she's gonna talk about a lot of things she did not before"
using the "she did talk several times about this person before" doesn't even makes sense. And the NERVE of coming in this specific blog to say this tho, if you go on the comments of every single post here you will see that it's a majority of "omg is she alive???? why so silent?"
so no there's no such thing as "Emma has attacked JKR several times before" this is straight up bullshit
Didn't you create it?
Depends who owned it, you'd have to get permission from them to use the name. Beyond that, there are platforms that make it pretty easy to set up forums (https://websitesetup.org/best-forum-software/).
Just bear in mind that various countries consider forums to be social media platforms just like Xitter, with all the content moderation regulations that go along with it.
Emma had already put out a statement in support of trans people because there was a bill going through the Scottish parliament that impacted them (the media called it the "bathroom bill"), that's what JKR was complaining about, her argument was that, because she doesn't believe trans people are real, it was just opening a window for rapists to go into women's bathrooms (and prisons). That's why I asked earlier if she thinks bathrooms have genital detecting force fields. They're rapists, pretending to be women isn't really necessary for them if they've already crossed that line.
Rainn Wilson is the one who introduced her as a feminist who stands up for women, hence Emma’s “I’m here for ALL women “ comment. Which was just a throw away comment to acknowledge Rainn’s introduction of her.
But let’s rewind back to 2019 back when Rowling hadn’t been such a publicly staunch terf, but rather was just dipping her toes into terfdom. Back when the most hate she got was “Jo there’s more than two genders “ or “hey that’s a minority that constantly being attacked”.
And my personal favorite “Jo, not ALL cis gendered women menstruate, that doesn’t mean they’re trans, and even if they were … how does that personally affect YOU”. Which she took as people calling her the stupidest b*tch in the whole world.
Emma was already getting harassed online for the shit Rowling said in 2019, because somehow it was a 29 year olds responsibility to make a 54 year old stop saying transphobic shit. And I can TELL that you weren’t around in 2019 either, given how you didn’t acknowledge the types of comments Emma got after the Paris Lees interview . Mostly perpetuated by the same people Rowling was cozying up in early 2021… Because IF she truly thought Emma was entitled to agree to disagree with her, she would’ve called off her little minions back in 2019… not befriended them less than a year later.
Now take a look at her Twitter for the past 6 years. The same account where not only has she tranvestigated and spearheaded smear campaigns againsts cis gendered poc female athletes for not being visually feminine enough for her.And has also accused a male employee (of a grocery store) , who was just covering the shift of somebody else near the underwear section of being trans and having malicious intentions towards a child. She has also engaged AND encouraged the harassment of the main trio for not agreeing with her. And last but not least, called trans people every name in the book and then some…
But yes, Emma is the bad person for letting a billionaire who is actively choosing to be on a PUBLIC platform daily, be held accountable for her comments publicly. And Emma is the one that has to defend the lady who has ACTIVELY has been befriended people who harass her online just because she isn’t a terf ever since 2019…
But if you don’t want to acknowledge Rowling’s terfdom and hypocrisy then fine. But let me ask you this… Why didn’t Rowling defend Emma back in 2014 when she came out a feminist. Actually why hasn’t she ever defended Emma in general (prior to 2014). Especially if she actually a fuck about the feminist who publicly speak out for women, she would’ve said something. Because the threats Emma got because of that are significantly worse than anything I’ve ever seen Rowling get. There was even an account with over 6,000 people threatening to kidnap her and send her to Turkish occupied Syria to “have their way with her”. All because she showed sympathy to the victims of the Syrian civil war. Just to give you an idea of the types of comments she received in a daily occurrence . And if you believe the blinds… a group of people were fired from/kicked off the set of B&B for joking about actually going through with it. The closest thing to that is people sharing Rowling’s castle address… The same address that was on a public websites about tourism in the city for years, without her ever saying anything about it. To the point almost everybody in town would give tourist directions on how to get there…
Depends who owned it, you'd have to get permission from them to use the name. Beyond that, there are platforms that make it pretty easy to set up forums (https://websitesetup.org/best-forum-software/).
Just bear in mind that various countries consider forums to be social media platforms just like Xitter, with all the content moderation regulations that go along with it.
I was gonna create a new forum, but if anyone knows who created it i would like their permmission . If not would any join it if I did it in discord?
Does JK ask Emma for permission about what to say, post, or who to support? So why should Emma need permission from her? Emma was openly supporting trans people long before the whole JK controversy. If she posted the same 2018 T-shirt saying ‘Trans Rights are Human Rights’ after JK’s comments, would that also be seen as an attack? JK acts as if everything revolves around her. Emma was not born to live under her dictatorship. When her parents signed for her to act in a film, they didn’t hand over her life to JK. Emma has every right to post and support whoever she wants, and if JK takes it personally, that’s her problem.
The "bar one" statement did not immediately exist at that moment in the Media. It's also a recent conversation. However she sent the note immediately after her speech . To think for such an intimate note, Emma chose to send it so publicly when more private alternative was available.
Talking about Discord, it reminds me that some people were asking me to create one because they thought they could ask for Narnia's link there. So I changed my mind and won't be sharing the link to a forum or discord if they were ever created. Sorry.
She didn't send the note publicly. JKR said Emma asked someone to hand her the note. I think you should stop commenting until you know at least the basic facts of what you're referencing.
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