Emma Watson on Jay Shetty's podcast

[Gallery] [Screencaps] [Fashion] [Version française]

Transcript below (it's gonna take some time).

(Preview) Emma: I realized have the career and the life that looks like the dream, but are you really happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? And have to admit to myself that I wasn't was one of the scariest things I've ever had to do.

(Introduction)

Jay Shetty: Emma, welcome to On Purpose. I'm so grateful that you're here and you know you've kind of been out of the public eye for a while now.

Emma: Yes.

Jay: And don't do that many interviews. I've watched the interviews you have done even before we planned to do this. And I wanted to ask from an intention point almost of why now? Why today? Why here?

Emma: I think I mentioned but I read your book because my dear friend Nupur told me that I should and every now and again I would see you come up on my feed. I don't spend much time on Instagram anymore, but when I did, I just felt like you were having a different conversation. And it's not that I have stopped doing interviews because I want to hide myself away. I think it's because I wanted to be able to have a certain type of conversation that I didn't seem able to find a space for. And so I called Nupur and said, "I think I just reached out to Jay to see if you would let me come and do his podcast on Monday." And she was like, "I've been waiting for this. I wondered when you would do this." I was like, "How did you know I was going to do it?" She's like, "I don't know. I just felt like this was coming." So here I am. And you said yes and the timing worked. I contacted you last week and it's Monday and so…

Jay: Well, that means the world to me. Truly. I'm so grateful for that because the few interactions and conversations we've had since then and you've sent me a few things to read over whether it's journals or reflections and honestly  I think I just said it to you a few moments ago and I mean it even if we weren't having this conversation today and you just sent me those things to reflect on myself that would have already been a gift and so the opportunity to actually sit with you and to talk about these things and have the space to have a conversation that you feel you haven't had before means the world to me and so thank you for trusting me and it's I look forward to getting to know you so much better. But let's dive in. I wanted to start by asking you like you said something there that was really beautiful because you stopped for a moment then you said it's easier to be honest and I was wanted to understand what that meant to you and how that feels. 

Emma: Such a big part of my job was trying to think three steps ahead of how everything that I would say could negatively impact the film that I was trying to do justice to and do service to and make sure that people understood what the director had intended and I felt this enormous sense of responsibility all the time to honor so many people's work that put together something like a film or you know even to some degree… I just did a fragrance with Prada and it's the first perfume bottle that you can like refill and I don't know I take my job seriously I guess and so interviews to me felt a lot like chess and it required so much energy and I think what's nice about the way that I'm showing up today is I'm just showing up for myself and for once. I actually am not here to um speak on behalf of anyone else or anything else other than myself, which is unusual.

Jay: Yeah. I think it's such a fascinating thing because as a viewer, even before I got closer to the industry, as a viewer, everything's made to feel in traditional media so easy and it has levity and it feels like you're getting someone's real personality and then you realize that you are… There's definitely reality to it and truth to it but at the same time, naturally, it's work. And there's a job. And I think it's not as… And you can shed more light on this. I don't think it's always as insidious or as dark as people may think it is, but there's just it's a job and it's work and there's results that matter, right?

Emma: Yeah, 100%. And I think within those contexts, everyone is trying to be as authentic as they humanly can be. But there's something about- I think it's why I mentioned earlier about why I felt like this was a good space is there's something inherently written into certain types of forms of media which is that it doesn't matter what intention or or how authentically you want to show up the form, like, somehow doesn't allow it to some degree and I've become obsessed with this recently. I've been looking at okay what is written into the form of something like Twitter or Instagram or Tik Tok or a podcast versus or a photograph versus a film versus a piece of writing and it's really interesting to see what a different medium or different form allows or doesn't allow or actually creates or encourages. I've never done a podcast before, but what I love about it is the intimacy of it. It's like I feel like people listen to podcasts when they're like- I certainly do anyway like first thing in the morning when I'm taking my shower or I'm going on my walk or I'm making my breakfast. It's really like personal intimate time and I think the long form version of these kinds of conversations allows for such a different kind of discussion that I don't think was possible before.

Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. I was going to ask you actually because I want everyone to get up to date with where you are now. Like, what does your day-to-day life look like? You just said like I wake up and I shower and I go on a walk. Like, what does your day-to-day life look like right now? And what's it made of and what are the things that you love and look forward to?

Emma: I recently started riding a bicycle and yes, I started riding a bicycle before my driving ban, but now it's particularly fortuitous that I also ride a bicycle for that reason. But-

Jay: I thought that was mainstream news.

Emma: Oh my god. I was getting phone calls like "it's on the BBC. It's on international worldwide news." I was like my shame is everywhere. This is- I mean what I say it's I don't know. I think in a funny way what the sweetest result of it was getting so many messages from being people being like happened to me too. I feel you. This is awful. It sucks. Which was kind of nice in a way but um

Jay: Do you need a lift?

Emma: Yeah totally. Do you need a lift? It's like actually yes. But I think again it's funny like I went from- when you work on movies I don't know if people know this but like they literally will not insure you to drive yourself to work. I've asked so many times.

Jay: You have to be driven.

Emma: You have to be driven. It's like not a choice. And especially because they need you there, you know, down to the minute basically depending on what they have going on. And so I went from basically only driving myself on weekends or during holiday to then when I became a student driving myself all the time and yeah I did not have the experience or skills clearly which I now will and do. But I think again this was one of these like awkward transitions I made from kind of living this like very very structured life to living a life where I was like okay I guess I'm going to get myself to this place and I'm going to like do this thing that I've basically not done since I was 10 years old. So, it's been a discovery and a journey that's been um yeah, I guess humbling because on a movie set, I'm able to do all of these like extremely complex things, stunt, sing, dance, like do this thing, do that, whatever. And I'm like, "Yep, don't worry about it, guys. No worries. I've got you." And then I get home and I'm like, "Okay, Emma, you seem unable to remember keys. your money, to like keep yourself at 30 mph in a 30 speed limit. Like you don't seem able to do some pretty like basic life things. And it was definitely kind of- Yeah, I had days where I just wanted to turn around to people and be like, "I used to be good at things. Okay. I used to be really good at things. And I know it doesn't look like that right now, but I can do things normally." Um, so yeah, it's been humbling.

Jay: I feel I feel like all of us I feel like all of us can relate to that though.

Emma: Really?

Jay: Because doesn't everyone forget their keys, their wallet, doesn't know where things are? Like these are like- And by the way, I think I was three points away from losing my license before I moved to the States.

Emma: Thank you for that confession. I appreciate that so much.

Jay: Because I've been in the States now for 9 years and I think it happened just- but then all the

points get wiped off.

Emma: Wow. 

Jay: And I think I'm now back to six points. I spend two months in London a year.

Emma: Okay this makes me feel much better. 

Jay: Every time I go back, I seem to-

Emma: Oh, Wow.

Jay: So, I'm confessing too. 

Emma: Okay, thank you

Jay: But I haven't lost it.

Emma: A lot of people actually a lot of people have like taken it upon themselves to come and confess to me, which I found like very very endearing and like really really appreciate it. But no, I think, you know, I think something I've been realizing is we most of us live in a state of like I'm just trying to kind of figure it out and keep it together. And the only thing that is different between us is people's willingness to be honest about that. The degree to which they can admit to actually I'm just like scrabbling around, trying to keep the pieces together, versus  "oh yeah I know everything's amazing and everything's incredible and I'm having the best day ever and aren't you?" And you know, so I do love the people who who are just willing to be like, "Yeah, it's not going so well today." I'm like, "Great, amazing. What a good starting point." Like I don't know, failure as a starting point feels like- I feel like attempting things is so compelling. And of course success is wonderful, but I love to see people who are like, "I'm really bad at this, but I'm going to try." like I love you. That's everything to me. Everything.

Jay: And that seems to be becoming harder and harder now. Like, that desire to attempt something that you might not be good at because it's exposed or because everyone will see it or because everyone will hear about it. Talking about attempting things. I mean, you're currently studying, right? You're learning.

Emma: Yes. Well, two things I want to say. There is I think in a way I was sort of- I mean I'm someone who's always cared about vulnerability and authenticity, but I think I was also forced into it to a degree that maybe even I wasn't ready for and that like I just started so young that like I had to learn in public. I had to make mistakes in public and say, "Oh, okay. Now I've learned this." And I had to be willing to go back and be like, hm, like there was some gaps here. And here's what I

know now. And I think people's- I agree with you. I think it's becoming increasingly difficult to learn in public and continuing to learn. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I I have gone back to school and why I continue to do it is because I want to make sure that I have things to say that are worth saying. And I think you can only do that if you take a minute sometimes and listen to some people who aren't you, you know, like not just the sound of my own my own wonderful voice. Um, so yeah, it's been it's been great. And I think also I needed to- I wanted to be inspired. I think my favorite piece has been being around young people who still believe that the world is malleable and things are changeable and that like anything can be done is um such important energy. There's so much dystopian fiction at the moment and dystopian movies

Jay: So dark.

Emma: It's so dark and I'm just like "what happened to thinking about the utopia? What happened to like planning for the best case scenario?" like where did we lose vision, excitement, imagination, possibility, so I think it's been wonderful to be around young people and just to sit there and listen.

Do you ever- I mean you clearly read so much do you have to take yourself away to do it in order to be able to do it, do you have to cordon off time, like how are you still managing to study and learn because that seems like it's important to you.

Jay: Yeah. You reminded me as you were talking of one of my spiritual teachers, my monk teacher, who always said to me, if you want to move three steps forward, you have to go three steps deep first.

Emma: Whoa.

Jay: And what I found often in my life is I'm trying to go four steps forward and I haven't yet gone four steps deep. And so it's almost like I mean this is probably a terrible analogy, but maybe thinking of the movie The Substance. I don't know if you watched it.

Emma: No, I didn't see it.

Jay: Okay, fine. Okay. Terrible. Let's let's remove- 

Emma: No, no, no. 

Jay: No, no,no. Let's forget about it. 

Emma: Okay.

Jay: But it's that idea of like every extra step you take when you haven't learned and you haven't experimented and you haven't attempted is taking away from your ability to move forward. 

Emma: Wow. 

Jay: And sometimes I think when we feel stuck or when we think things are not moving or they're not progressing. It may be a sign to say well pause and go deeper for a second or pause and go inward for a second. And so to me, hearing that from you, I find that and I definitely fail at this all the time. There are so many times I'm trying to push more forward than I've gone deep. And so whenever I notice that myself and I notice that I'm just kind of trying everything and nothing is working, it's actually just the universe and self saying to me, go read, go study. And so I found that I've had to really carve out time to make time to do what I love, which is to read and study. But I found that I'm someone who doesn't love 30 minutes a day. I'm not that kind of a reader. I'm someone who needs to read for 3 or 4 hours, if not more. And so I found that carving out deep immersive time is more important to me than this kind of mechanical 30 40 minutes a day, which is great for you if that works for you as a habit. It doesn't for me I'm a bit of an extremist.

Emma: Me too 

Jay: And I just need to spend a whole weekend reading as opposed to I don't need to read every day. So I'll try and I try once a month on a weekend to just absorb into a subject that I love and I'll take a course, I'll go to a class, I'll watch a TED talk online, I'll read as many books as I can and I try and immerse myself that way. What's your learning style?

Emma: I'm the same as you. And actually  someone who I really respect and ask for advice often and ask for feedback on myself. He said to me, "Emma, I think if you did 90% of what you wanted to do at 50% of the speed, you would get so much more, like, life would be so much better." And I was like, "Wow, 50% of the speed and only 90% of what I want to do." And he was like, "I think that's the minimum to be honest." And I was like, wow. But I think, yeah, what you said resonates. I think I often have to remind myself that it's not about speedily getting somewhere. It's just not the point. Things are supposed to happen with a certain timing. And so yeah, resonates. And to your point, I cannot just sit for 30 minutes and look at something. I need kind of like a week on holiday and then I'll start to deeply get into something and I need quiet and I hyperfocus and that's when I you know I love it but I can't do little itty bitty bits. It drives me nuts.

Jay:  It just doesn't work for me.

Emma:  It doesn't work. So… resonates.

Jay: You said that you felt that you had to learn in public and then you made mistakes. Like what were mistakes that felt like mistakes then that made you feel like "oh gosh I made that mistake in public but I was 10 years old" or whatever it was and now you look back and you think "oh you know I was able to process it."

Emma: Yeah. I think the big one was feminism and intersectional feminism and frankly it just like wasn't taught. You know, I had to really seek out and I'm really grateful actually that I was in many ways quite lovingly called in as opposed to- I mean some of it was not, but I think that was definitely a moment where I had to say okay I'm talking about something really big and important and it's actually really important to sit this in some context which I have not done and I think that was a big moment. I think it was more there was an omission, there was things that were missing as opposed to I had said something wrong. I just needed I just needed to fill in more gaps. And so um that was when I started or that was actually in the middle- I had a feminist book club called Our Shared Shelf. And so that was part of those conversations. But it was a good moment for me to learn that feeling uncomfortable sometimes is good. I think we have an alarm system that goes off which is like I'm uncomfortable, this feels uncomfortable, so something bad must be happening and I must leave as soon as possible. And actually I think that was when I started to learn, "oh actually me being uncomfortable in a space um might be a good sign because it might mean I'm about to learn something." And I want to attribute this that was

Marai Larasi who who helped me understand that and was a very very valuable teaching. So now when I'm in a space and listening to things and I feel uncomfortable I don't think it means I need to bolt or something bad's happening.

Jay: Yeah.

Emma: Maybe something really good is about to happen. Yeah.

Jay: Yeah. And I feel like that goes back to what we started with this idea of attempting means discomfort and attempting means incomplete.

Emma: Yeah.

Jay: In that and I love I love that point you made that actually whenever we're sharing anything it's not that it's not true. It's that it's not complete.

Emma: Yes.

Jay: And mostly when we see people say things or share ideas, it's very rare to have anyone ever share a complete idea because that means they would have had to think about it from every single vantage point. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Jay: Which is not even humanly possible.

Emma: It's not possible. It's not possible. And I think Adrienne Maree Brown, I don't know if you've ever had, she wrote an amazing book which is one of her more recent ones which is called Loving Corrections (affiliated link). And she speaks to kind of exactly this, which is there's kind of this like ire that we see online when people don't attribute something perfectly to someone else or they're missing something and it's like, isn't the whole point of this that we're in conversation? And if it's the right person, you can see that a good intention is there, then maybe we can kind of do it in a way that doesn't need to be- I mean obviously there's important time and place for holding people accountable. But maybe, I don't know, attributing like great we're all going to help each other kind of pad this out fill this out. Yeah.

Jay: Yeah. Yeah. It's a hard- I think that's the hard part. It's like how do you differentiate between holding someone accountable and giving them grace? And that's a really interesting discussion in and of itself. And I don't think I have the answer or know exactly what it is, but I feel like that's a thought exercise as humans that if we were to do it would actually, I don't know. What's your take?

Emma: Maybe the grace is attributing good intention and the accountability is the courage it takes to actually say something to someone. Because it's such a scary thing to do and it often requires a lot of emotional labor and I find this a lot as a woman when I'm- especially as a woman who's dating, that like I will just be like "is it worth me explaining, is it worth me explaining this thing or should I just not take the time to do this" because sometimes I will really- I care about doing it kindly and compassionately. And it's very rare for me to attribute bad intent to anyone, but you know, sometimes it does fall on deaf ears and you're like that text message took me like 40 minutes like to word perfectly or that voice note or whatever and you're like "is this making a difference? Like am I getting through to any- is transformative justice real? Like is this is this label worth it?" But I think I don't have a perfect answer. I haven't lived through enough of it to know. I guess I've just reached a point where it's like I'd rather die trying. I'd rather die having tried. And maybe some small piece of it, even if it's not now, even if it's at some future point, like something I've said just like goes, "Oh, something at the back of my mind here, someone says something to me, then you know, maybe it's worth it."

[COMING UP]

Jay: When you think about little Emma, like what was a childhood memory that you have, a core memory that you have that you feel has defined who you are today somewhat?

Emma: I think I won't share the specific memory cuz it's so personal, but I think I've always felt other people's pain very intensely. Until maybe recently, I did not know how to give myself grace and navigate- seeing my sensitivity as a strength and knowing that it's like my gift, but it also means I have to care for it in specific ways. When you are given gifts, there's often- kind of have to compensate in some other ways. And in the same way that like my position in life and fame has given me this extraordinary power, it's also given me a lot of responsibility. And these things often have these kind of- I don't know when or why it started, but I think I've always, whoever it was that was suffering in the room, I was always the most aware of them. And I think that has formed a lot of why I could act. It was almost like I was kind of sucking all of this in and then I needed to let it out somewhere or unleash it somewhere. And I remember when my parents saw me on stage for the first time afterwards, they were just like, "Where did that come from? You don't have any of these experiences." I recorded a song for my 12th birthday. My mom bought me a day in a recording studio. And I sing Natalie Imbruglia's "Torn". Like I've had my heart broken 50,000 times, you know? Like I've been married and divorced and whatever. And I'm 12 and I've never had a boyfriend and I don't know anything about love.

Jay: Have you ever thought about where it came from?

Emma: I would imagine, I can't say for sure. I would imagine that my family structure has not been a traditional family structure. And that feeling of knowing that I'm from a situation where we just don't quite fit the kind of nuclear family mold. And I think coming back from France and trying to figure out how to sort of integrate and being the eldest and having my younger brother and having my mom and like trying to sort of be some sort of glue or holding together for everyone's feelings. I'm pretty sure that's probably where it started. And then I guess just being aware of other people who might feel the way I did, which is like, who else in here doesn't feel like they quite fit?

Jay: I've always found that it took me a while to recognize, but when I did, it was so helpful that a lot of what I do today is because I mediated my parents' marriage growing up. And so I developed all these skills of listening and empathy and grace and compassion because I was doing it for two people that I loved. And I see it as a strength and  it comes with it comes with certain things for sure, it comes- you're

absolutely right but at the same time I've always seen it as a strength and it's something that has served me well in my marriage it's served me well in my relationships and at the same time it has certain consequences that make you different or make you process things differently and so and I remember one thing you shared with me that I was reading it, you said, "I used to spend my weekdays with mom and my weekends with dad." And you said it almost felt like you were changing costumes sometimes.

Emma: Yes.

Jay: And they're all like this two lives kind of thing.

Emma: Yes. Yes.

Jay: And and I feel that's so relatable. I feel like so many people can relate to that. Whether their family was more traditional or wasn't, I think every child has had this feeling of not fitting in quite and not knowing which life they're meant to lead and that feels like it's kind of played into yours.

Emma: Yes, for sure. I think it's also why I've had to really navigate my relationship towards art and acting because I'm pretty sure that I was using acting as a way of escaping how painful- um my parents- like it wasn't just the divorce. It was just like the continuing situation of living between two different houses and two different lives and two different sets of values. And as a child, like, being aware of, like, hm we don't quite have the support we need here for this, like, this is not quite, we're not quite like- and I think it does it makes you, it made me a slightly serious child because I had that consciousness and then when I would go and spend the weekend with my dad, it was like a very different set of rules, very different situation and so you do, you kind of like- and I think everyone can relate to this to an extent that it's not that you are- be like wanting to become different people but it's you there are different expectations of you in different places that you understand that you need to fill and so I think some of that split then became- I was like "okay, wow". You know my parents have very different views on different things. And the hard part of that was that no one gave me any easy answers. It meant I had to form all of my own opinions myself because there was no consensus. And it made me a critical thinker for sure because- and so that was amazing and also really, like, gosh, okay, I need to decide what I think is important in life and what my opinions are. No one's handing me this. Yeah. Maybe it also made me aware of not wanting to be so split as well and why it's been important to me to try to remain whole. In all the different circumstances of my life and ask myself questions about how I can do that best because I think I experienced as a child that the split is painful. Like if you're living a reality one way but presenting something else, those are the moments when you can really feel torn apart. And I recognized that and I didn't want that to be my life. I didn't want pretend to be my real life.

Jay: Yeah. I mean that's so- I can so relate to you personally on the idea of not having a blueprint and having to create my own. And how often when you don't have a blueprint, you feel you have two choices. And that's where you feel torn. Whereas when you look at it as a whole and go, okay, well now I get to craft my own narrative from this and I may take a few pieces from here and a few pieces from here and I'm going to form my own puzzle. But I don't have to choose a path. It's really beautiful when you do it, but it's really hard in the beginning because it just feels like there are two parts. And I want to talk about how much that impacted, you know, your work. And you said there, you said that one thing you mentioned that really stood out to me was you felt that acting was in some way escaping that kind of which version do I have to be? And I think so much of what we do for work or so much of what we pursue as humans is based on something we're trying to build, create, maybe escape from, maybe to reveal something. And I think we haven't often looked at work that way. Like sometimes we choose a career because we know it will make our parents happy. And so we're living a pattern or sometimes you choose something because it breaks the pattern that you were growing up in. And it's fascinating to me to look at that. For you, you were acting in school plays since you were a a young girl. And was acting always something you were going to do, or did do you feel like it was this cross-section of what was happening in your personal life that actually made that feel like the direction you would choose?

Emma: I think it's so interesting that you said those words, reveal and escape, that they're kind of the same thing because I think that- it all started with a poem. I did a poetry competition when I was nine called the Daisy Pratt poetry competition. And I'm actually naturally quite a shy person. And so actually

for me to stand up in front of people feels like an out-of-body experience. Like there's so much adrenaline coursing through my veins that it does feel like a moment outside of time. And I remember the exhilaration of living the kind of ups and downs of this poem. And maybe because there wasn't space to have conversations or express myself at that time in the way that I needed to. I did it through performance. And I also did it as a way of getting to feel free for a moment of what I was- like the discomfort of that time of not quite knowing who I was or how to be in the world. And as I've become more healed and whole and more comfortable being myself, it's been interesting to ask myself, do you still need acting? do you still need to act? Like why what are you doing that for? And like the kind of it used to feel like almost like a compulsion that I needed to do it. And what's really interesting now is I don't feel quite that kind of urgency of needing to do it. And I wonder if it's because actually I have spaces where I can now take some of those feelings and talk about some of the things I don't think I had space to voice without doing it on camera in front of thousands of people. Yeah.

Jay: Yeah. Which is scary in its own way, right? It's like it's easy to think, "Oh, that makes sense." But then it's like, well, no, it's really challenging to do that second part. Even if it makes sense rationally or logically. And was that what in 2019 when you kind of pulled away, was your reason I want to heal and work on myself or was it actually I don't feel a compulsion anymore? Like was that the inflection point of doing some self work or was that the inflection point of need to pause? 

Emma: I realized I was drawing on painful stuff in my life that I was actually healing and I didn't want to keep revisiting in order to do some of the more intense, scarier, sadder things that I had to do. I realized- I remember by Beth's deathbed, by her graveside when we shot those films. Like normally there are like these painful memories that I would use for those moments. And I realized I was like I don't know if this is super great for me actually to keep revisiting these or if I want to use these as my tools and I don't think that means I'll never come back to acting. I think it just meant I was like I wonder if there's a different way to do this. I think the second thing was, to be really honest, I was coming to those sets with an expectation that I think I had developed on Harry Potter, which was that we were- the people I worked with were going to be my family and that we were going to be lifelong friends. I came to work looking for friendship and that was a very painful experience for me outside of Harry Potter and in Hollywood. Like bone-breakingly painful. Because most people don't come to those environments looking for friendships. They're looking for "this is my chance. This is my role. This is what I want out of it. I'm focused. This is my job. This is my career. Like let's go." And I was not of

that mindset. And so I found the rejection really painful.

Jay: The friendship rejection.

Emma: Yeah. Of like I was like- I think it's so unusual to make a set of films for 12 years and we were a community. Like we really were. And so I took that as an expectation into my other workplaces and I just got my ass kicked. I really did.

Jay: Was it competition? Was it envy? Was it just hierarchy? Was it…

Emma: I think it was a combination. It was a molotov cocktail of all of the above. As we mentioned earlier, I'm just not thick skinned. Maybe I just wasn't built for those kinds of highly competitive environments. (starts crying) It Yeah, it broke me. Yeah. But in a way, I'm proud that it did because I guess that means I have something left to break. I have a heart left to break. So, it was a hard learning, but I think there's something that I'm proud of in a way that there were certain things I couldn't withstand. I'd much rather keep my humanity.

Jay: I think there might be a tissue.

Emma:  I'm managing to like keep it inside.

Jay: If you need it, there is a tissue.

Emma: That's really- 

Jay: No, but I really appreciate you saying that and I mean it's so powerful to hear how you've processed it. Like just what you added there 'cause when I saw your voice change and just when you were expressing it and it hit me as you said it and I felt it and then the way you reflected on it kind of helped that feeling rise really beautifully because what you said is so true that if you were broken by a frequency of envy and competition and whatever else it was, that's only proof that you were vibrating in a way that didn't want to be pulled down into that. And it's so interesting though how when we break to those sorts of emotions and ideas, we feel we're the weak one.

Emma: Yeah.

Jay: When it's completely the opposite.

Emma: That was the most painful thing was I thought I beat myself up for years afterwards really thinking, like punishing myself saying you couldn't hack it, you weren't strong enough. And yeah, what bliss and what peace I think to understand that to have come out on top would have been a greater failure I think in terms of who I actually care about being.

Jay: Yeah. It's almost like if you abandoned yourself in that moment in order to align with that new way of thinking.

Emma: Yeah.

Jay: You'd probably beat yourself up more long term and have a much harder time.

Emma: Yes, I think so. I don't know. I've just got to this place where it's just- if it costs me any part of my peace, it's just too expensive. And of course, like there's opportunities that I think, wow, like that would be amazing. And I care deeply about my work. But I think I just used to completely sacrifice myself for whatever the thing was I was trying to achieve. And that could be a grade, it could be a movie, it could be promoting. I just was obsessed with excellence and doing everything, giving my all to everything and doing it to the best of my ability. And unless you have the right people around you that can hold that kind of level of commitment, you're going to get smashed up. You're just going to get

crushed. And so I think now it's just a case of me being like, okay, I know that for me to do anything, I have to have people in the room that care about me more than whatever the product is or whatever the final product is. And if that isn't the case, I cannot be there because I'm just someone who like gives it all. It's how I'm built. And I think understanding that makeup of myself and not punishing myself for that, but just knowing it needs certain kinds of conditions is how I've come to hopefully- I'll keep doing it forever and probably every day, but accepting myself. 

Jay: Yeah, it seems like- I've spoken to so many- and we were talking about this last week when we were speaking on the phone that I I've worked with so many young people, musicians, who've all been told like, "All right, if you don't do this over the next 12 months, you're not going to make it."

Emma: Yeah.

Jay: Or like if you don't do this right now, if you don't say yes to this song or this movie, it's like you might as well wave it goodbye. You're never going to get the Oscar or the whatever it may be or the Grammy or whatever it is. And I can't imagine being a young person, like, I'm 37 now and it's- you process ideas like that differently. But if you're in your teens or even 20s there's, and maybe even 30s, but you process those statements with so much gravitas, especially when it's someone of influence and power saying it to you. It feels like being surrounded by people who really believe in you and your longevity and your art versus- But that's hard to find.

Emma: It is. It's hard to find. And you know, I had a wonderful team. Like I really did. I think it's just like understanding that no one at the end of the day is going to be in the room like when you're actually doing the thing. You have to carry that moment and you have to carry that pressure. Also, making films, the hours on them are so demanding that to have your own life alongside that, to have that balance is almost impossible. It's so all or nothing. It's so all-encompassing, especially if you're in a lead role. You kind of go through these, you know, working six days a week, 14 to 16 hour days, and then you're just kind of dropped off at the end of it. And maybe you'll have a 2 or 3 month gap and then there's just kind of like nothing. And so you're like riding this incredible peak of adrenaline and cortisol and then you just get dropped off the edge and then you're like, "Okay, wait, now I have to be a functioning human again and I have to like figure out how to be a person in the real world." And I think some of those extremes then force an actor to either decide, well, I'm going to back to back it, so I'm going to basically go from one movie to the next, and that's going to be my full life. Or you have to navigate these huge impacts on your nervous system that you need a system and a support system to help you navigate. And I think it's why addiction and mental illness in my profession and in a lot of high stress, high profile professions is so common place because you're trying to balance out these enormous chemical ups and downs.

Jay: Yeah. talk talk to people about why because I think from the outside when someone sees a red carpet or when someone sees an event it looks really glamorous like until I ever attended anything and you know I always looked at it as like oh my gosh it's so glamorous and everyone's there and everyone must be friends and everyone must know each other because they all you know- but then you're not saying that and neither is- and anytime I've ever been on a red carpet everyone's anxious and everyone's

nervous and that's the real experience People are almost waiting to leave. And some people do the red carpet and leave immediately, but what's going on there? Like walk us through like for people who may not.

Emma: I think the first step is to just understand even though you're wearing an incredibly glamorous dress and you're there to do something exciting, I don't think there's anything that can make it not weird that people are screaming at the top of their lungs. Like it it just everything in your body says something's wrong. like people are screaming, something's wrong. But then you have to try to pretend as though this is all normal and you're unfased. So you have like two things going on. One, you're like navigating this like sensory overload that's like telling you, oh my god, something is really wrong.

Jay: Telling you how to pose, telling you where to look, telling you-

Emma: Yeah. So, so you're trying to navigate, okay, something feels wrong, but I need to also simultaneously make it seem as though I am the most graceful and the most calm I've ever been in my whole life. And I need to like pose for this person and there's 50 different cameras and I need to make sure that I look perfectly into each and every one. And I probably would have had four different notes from the stylist about how I'm supposed to stand and what I need to do for the dress. And then I've got like 25 different talking points from the movie of what I need to get across and also avoid saying or talking about. And so you need to be thinking about that. And the the juggle is crazy. And then I think everyone is in this kind of jumped up state. And so, like, trying to have a normal conversation with anyone is basically impossible because you feel like an insane person. And so these are not environments in which you have a nice chat with someone really. I mean, maybe if you're really lucky and you've worked with someone for a long time and you've established some trust, but I think that was the other thing that was really difficult about movies and what I kind of laugh at. Well, not in a mean way. I don't- but, like, you know you always get asked when you're promoting these big films like so do you guys hang out on set and do you guys hang out and are you all friends and everyone sort of nods enthusiastically but the truth is no one has seen each other outside of work like very very very rarely mostly because the schedule is insane. Everyone's so tired that when they get any time off you're going straight back to your hotel room to try to, like, claw in any piece of rest that you possibly can. And I don't know like it- friendships require time and trust and presence and those things very rarely come about. They can and they do occasionally but it's more of a, you know, solar eclipse than an everyday situation. So yeah, but you have to pretend. I think that's the part that starts to feel icky after a while is you have to pretend that you're all best friends. And what's so sad and I know this isn't just the case for me, but I think people wish they were. I think we wish we did have those real connections and we did have that real support. And so having to pretend that something exists that you actually really want but don't have is, like, pretty grainy in the wound, you know? It's a pretty tough pill to swallow to have to act out something that you wish were real but isn't real. And I think that's the part that starts to kind of- yeah. I can only speak for myself but those are definitely the moments where I've been, like, this feels dark. Like, is anyone else, like, this feels dark?

Jay: Yeah. And there's such a real reminder that it's still work. And it's almost like asking anyone who works at any company and saying, "Hey, do you hang out with your team after work every night?" And the answer is probably no. Yeah, no. Everyone's go home to their family. And maybe you've got a couple, of course, you got a couple of friends at work. And it's wonderful if you have a friend at work that you work out with or see after hours, but you're not hanging out as the whole crew. It's very unlikely.

Emma: 100%. 

Jay: And it is that reality check of no but this is also just work and their character stories are not their personal stories and it doesn't and that's why I wanted to go back. You mentioned that you talked about how Harry Potter had a family feel and I wanted to ask you like how did that come about in the first like what was- where did the auditions come from like how did that become a part of your life.

Emma: Yes so I did not go to a performing arts school, I'd never done anything. I never acted professionally, but they did like a basically countrywide search to find Harry, Hermione, and Ron. And so they asked my school if they wanted to submit any students who love drama who wanted to audition. And so I was one of I think about 12 students that was asked if I wanted to audition. I don't know. It was weird. I had this weird weighted, fated sense of destiny pretty much from the moment that that they mentioned the audition. I remember I brought I think maybe like seven different Beanie Babies with me along and like all these different like lucky talismans and I loved the world and the books so much. My dad had been reading them to me before bed when I would spend the weekends with him and on long car journeys. We'd often drive back and forwards to France and that's how the time would be passed. And so I was just like- loved the world, loved Hermione. And for me it wasn't so much about acting so much as it was that like I- just the books meant so much to me personally.

Jay: Did you feel like it was destiny for you or did you always feel like it was going to be this? Because obviously the books were already, you know.

Emma: I always felt like Hermione was- I knew I was never auditioning for anything else. I knew it was her. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. Something felt right about it. And my poor parents because if I hadn't have got it, I think they knew how crushed- I ended up doing nine auditions over a period of over a year and a half, which for a 9-year-old is a massive commitment, but I was- I loved

her. I loved it. I really did.

Jay: What do you wish now that you would have known before you became Hermione?

Emma: I did a pretty good job and actually I give my mother specifically credit for this. She was like a warrior for my normalcy and for me having an ordinary life and going to school and no one wanted that. I mean, it would have been considerably easier if I had not continued going to school. But she, wow, I will forever be in her debt. She somehow knew that me feeling part of the ordinary world and feeling I had a place in it and that I belonged outside of those films was going to be crucial.

Jay: Wow, that's really incredible. 

Emma: It was because she basically didn't have anyone on her team. She was kind of on her own on that one. And she fought tooth and nail. She was like on the phone for hours saying she has to sit her exams, she has to go back, she needs to be here, she needs to have some parts of a normal childhood. And yeah, forever in her debt.

Jay: That's so special to have had that. And have those- Yeah. To have a parent who can foresee like- and you can't see anything for yourself. You're…

Emma: Yeah. No. And to be honest, I didn't really I didn't really get it.

Jay: No of course.

Emma: If I'm going to be- I was like okay, like, I guess it's important, you know, I didn't really get it. So I think- Yeah, she was amazing.

Jay: Yeah. When did- because from what I was reading from what you shared with me, I was- when did Emma, you, Emma Watson and Hermione and the characters that then followed start to get blurred and intertwined because that expectation that comes with- I remember this and I share it because to give it to context to people I was walking down the road with one of my friends who's an actor who gets recognized a hundred times for every one time I might get recognized. So, just put in context. And so, if we're walking down like this person get stopped 100 times for pictures and then I'll get stopped once. And it was really beautiful 'cause we'd spent a day together and that person had been stopped 100 times and maybe I've been stopped a couple of times. And then they said something to me. They said, "Jay, you're really lucky." And I said, "What do you mean?" And I thought they were going to say, "Because I'm anonymous to some degree." But they didn't. He said to me, he goes, "Jay, you're really lucky because" he goes, "When people stop me, they stop me for who I play to be. And when they stop you, they stop you for who you are." And it was really encouraging words from someone that I respect a lot. And I was like, "Wow." Like, I never thought about it like that. I just- it hadn't hit me how different it

was. And because I think you just see fame or success or whatever is this one big bubble of stuff, especially when you're not that close to it, you don't know too much about it. And it was that conversation that made me even be even more personal with everyone that I ever spoke to because they'd always have a personal story or and that's not to say that isn't true for music and for acting and of course there is. I don't want to take away from it.

Emma: No. No.

Jay: Um and I'm not saying that as a egotistical statement. I'm saying it as like how hard it is for an individual to go through that.

Emma: Yes.

Jay: And to be disassociated from themselves.

Emma: Yes. 

Jay: Because that role could be a part of you. It could be an expression of you. It was a part of your life at a certain period of time, but of course it isn't you.

Emma: Yes.

Jay: But does that make any sense?

Emma: I remember when I gave my UN speech about He For She and about feminism and women's rights and people started stopping me because of things that I- had come from me and that I had said. It felt like a very significant transition for me because for the first time I felt like I could look someone in the eye and receive and accept something that they were saying because I felt like it actually had something to do with me and I wasn't just kind of a like a custodian of something sacred which I did take very seriously and I still do but it had been a direct transmission from me and I think that's why writing has become so important to me is because it's a way that I say things directly and that feels really meaningful. 

Jay: Yeah, I love the word you just used there of the difference between being a custodian and, you know, direct transmission you said and that's such an interesting way to think about it and I think each and every one of us don't want to be known as a lawyer or an accountant or a doctor or a... like, yes that's a part of us and it's a role we play in society and it of course brings significance and value and worth and all of these wonderful things but I think everyone wants to be something beyond that And no one wants to be that in their home. And no one wants to be that with their friends. And no one wants and and me included, by the way. It's like I try and me and one of my friends who's a well-known stand-up comic, we always joke about how he hates to be asked to tell jokes on command and I try with my friends to not say smart. I try not to say thoughtful revelatory things because of my friends. I just want to be, like, I don't want to have to coach someone's marriage or solve their thing. I don't want to do that. Like I just want to be and and so even for someone who is doing direct transmission a lot more of the time even then there's a feeling of well I don't want to say anything profound in this conversation.

Emma: I need to put this down.

Jay: Yeah. I need to put the one down. Right.

Emma: Yes. Yeah. I think a big piece of me understanding again why I needed to take a minute is that even being the person who was promoting the work became a kind of role like Emma Watson became this, like, avatar, this person that I identified with but also kind of didn't. She'd become reproduced so many times over and kind of had become so loaded by all of this different stuff that she almost felt too heavy to carry. Like I kind of was, like, I don't even know if I can be that bitch anymore. I went on a date like 2 years ago and it was the best confession ever. But I was messaging this person. And he was

like, "Can I just say something? Like, Emma Watson makes me anxious." And I was like, "Emma Watson makes me anxious, too." 

Jay: That's so good.

 

Emma: We are on the same page. Like, I get it. I can't even be her. I don't know how to be her. Live up to what I look like on the cover of a magazine. I don't look like that. Like, I don't know. I don't even know how to touch what that person's become. That was kind of a funny realization at some point where I was like, I really need to step off this thing 'cause I just- once you've, I don't know, there's such a glamorization that comes hand in hand with being a public famous person, especially if you're a woman. I feel so envious of my male co-stars who can just put on a t-shirt and show up without like this like whole rigmarole of kind of becoming being acceptable enough to be on camera and kudos to Pamela Anderson recently just doing the thing because it's- the amount of courage it will have taken to do that, I cannot even begin to express to you. It's wild the expectations are insane it's impossible so

Jay: Shot on vacation, private space 

Emma: Yeah just the beauty expectations are so difficult to reach and the bar gets raised all the time. So, it's like you're on this constantly like I don't know, it's like some sort of like Survivors Island game show beauty nightmare where, you know, I don't know. It's nuts. So I- Yeah, I think part of also not feeling like Emma Watson is just like the whole like glam squad culture of it all is- it's intense. It's- yeah 

Jay: It's so fascinating because there's almost like this learning of becoming you know becoming Emma Watson becoming you know being all the roles you play and then it almost feels like what you're saying is there was a moment you wanted to step off and unlearn what that meant.

Emma: Totally.

Jay: But that seems really hard.

Emma: Yes.

Jay: Because learning it was hard enough and then to unlearn it when it's linked to your work, your finances, your worth, your friendship, community, connection, all of the where you live. How do you even begin to unlearn being Emma Watson?

Emma: It's a knotted ball you have to sort of unravel very carefully and-

Jay: Carefully. That's it. Yeah.

Emma: Yeah. I think-

Jay: It's not like a wrecking ball. like you're not just-

Emma: I mean some things had to be done like the wrecking ball honestly and then some parts of it were like a much slower, more gentle teasing out but I mean I don't know if you find this but I imagine that a lot of your friendships are made through the podcast and made through your work and there's kind of this like non-separation between your home and your family and your relationship and the podcast but tied into that there's also like the very real- some people will be wanting you to reference their new book or like promote something for them or whatever and like navigating that- so many of these threads are entwined. Does it ever start to feel like you're like, "Wow, this is a lot." People ask me all the time, "Do you ever wonder why people want to hang out with you or be your friend or whatever?" And does that ever get complicated for you?

Jay: I think because my direct transmission is so clear, that if anyone in the industry wants to connect, there's usually quite a distinct journey that they're on that mine can support or help with as a friend or in in a more formal capacity and that I deeply enjoy and I'm grateful for because people are not inviting me out to crazy parties 

Emma: They're not?!

Jay: and I'm happy. Yeah, they're not. Yeah. They don't think I'm fun enough. Yeah. I just saw a clip of the other day of Austin Butler saying he's never been invited to a bachelor party before and I was like, I couldn't believe it. But that kind of feel like I don't get invited to crazy parties and and I'm grateful for that. I don't- that's not really a part of my life, right? Unless it's a spiritual party and then I'm all game and- but there isn't that. And so sometimes I think my direct transmission is a good protective mechanism because I don't really get asked to come to things but then at the same time it takes me to get to know someone deeply. Like I just traveled with a friend to Greece and we played and I don't think they were anticipating this but we played three nights of poker from midnight to 7:00 a.m. and it was amazing and I loved it and I had the best time and I don't think they expected me to do that. They expect me to get to bed early but I was on vacation and I was like I'm game. and I won. So I was like, you know, I'll take it. And I'm very competitive in that way and I enjoy it. And so I think what it is for me is I think there's a big thing for me that's been from- I grew up as part of a big community. In London. And a big spiritual community that I became a part of when I was young. And I think that what I found is it's very difficult to discern for people externally and even for people in that community as to how close they were to me. And so there are some people that assume that because we sat in a class together and there were 200 people in the class. But now that their opinion on me or that their relationship with me is close when in actuality I've never had a one-to-one conversation with that person. And so now their opinion matters to the outside world, it matters to the media, it matters to whatever, but I actually don't know that person and they don't really know me. It's just so that we went to the same congregation in the same year which has lots thousands of people in it. And so I struggle with that and then I also struggle with people coming up to me and saying, "Oh, Jay, I've known you for 20 years and you know, like from back in the day at the temple and but I'm like we didn't like we didn't ever have like a conversation." And I still have all my best friends from that community that are still my closest friends and they also feel the same way because they see it. And so I think I find that very difficult.

Emma: Yeah, that's true.

Jay: It is hard to navigate because it's not that I don't have positive feelings towards people or the community or anything. I do. But I struggle with people feeling they know me when they never did. But they've almost created a story within their mind that they really knew me well. And because it was a big community, this isn't a group of school friends or something which I'm still really close with. It's more this expanded community which you were just visible in. Not even audible or if that makes any sense.

Emma: No, that makes perfect sense. I think- yeah, being part of a larger community would be tricky to navigate with, yeah, with the kind of I guess like being a famous person in essence is like lots of people can project lots of things onto you and like if they had some level of contact with you it makes those kinds of projections a lot easier and then you're like oh wow we're in a completely different like your experience of this is so different from mine.

Jay: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean yours is like a million x that and you know I can't imagine how hard dating is like. You talked about in some of the journal reflections that you sent me, like, this idea of just like- dating is hard as a 20-year-old, 30-year-old woman anyway. And then to add your life to it. Talk to me. You've referenced it a couple of times in conversations you've had. Like what does it feel like when you're having a normal conversation and someone goes, "Wait a minute, you're Hermione Granger, Emma Watson, you know, list goes on." Yeah.

Emma: Yeah. I mean, it does feel like my avatar enters the room, unexpectedly, all of a sudden, and then I'm like navigating a completely different conversation if someone hasn't figured out that it's me yet. And that can feel really dehumanizing and sometimes quite kind of seeing someone's like behavior like completely switch and turn and change can be kind of a jarring experience. I think what's nice is at the very least dating for everyone is basically a complete disaster and free-for-all. So, like I feel like I'm in good company in that sense. But I think it's funny occasionally people will apologize to me for the fact they've not seen my films and I will be like please don't apologize. That is bliss to me like music to my ears that like you're not going to constantly be navigating and me also navigating with you. This projection of me or this Emma Watson avatar person will not be this ghost in the room. So, um, that's happened a few times where people have been like, "I'm really sorry." And I'm like, "Please don't apologize. I'm so relieved. I'm so incredibly relieved."

Jay: And then you realize they have the box that later on.

Emma: Yeah. No. I'm like, "God, I hope not." But, I mean, I guess I want people to appreciate my work, but I think knowing you don't have to navigate that extra like degree of weirdness is helpful, a relief. 

Jay: How do you help people get to know the real you at this stage in your life?

Emma: You know, I wrote this play that I actually sent to you to read, but I actually read parts of it to people  because I find that trying to explain sometimes how weird it is to be me. Like I almost need aids. like it's so difficult to convey like how weird it is and how surreal sometimes that I sometimes I'll just be like can I just like read you this thing I wrote because I think it's going to shortcut you somewhere and so that's actually been incredibly helpful and I'm so glad I went and did this this creative

writing masters and I've spent more time writing about my experiences because sometimes I can't even articulate it to myself like how are you supposed to explain something to someone else if you can't really even understand for yourself? So, I think writing, creative writing, making art has been the best therapy I've ever done because it's helped me get clarity and also just be able to laugh at myself and laugh at the situation. I think one-on-one therapy can be amazing, but like there is a kind of intensity and a seriousness to that that maybe, when you're writing something down and when I wrote the play, I wrote it for my friends and family and I was able to kind of bring more of myself to the picture in a way which is someone who's like this is just nuts. Like I can't sometimes, I just genuinely cannot believe that my life is my life and I need a place where I can put that.

Jay: Yeah, I loved- So just for everyone who's you know hearing about the referencing of this play, Emma wrote a play which helped her closest friends and family understand her experience of life basically. Is that a bad description as a-

Emma: No, no, it's not a bad description. But like specifically, I wrote the play about me transitioning from basically being a full-time actress, an activist to trying to move home and like be a normal student and attend a normal university as a super famous person. And I basically kept a journal of what those experiences were like and chronicled them for my friends and family for about a year and then performed it as a one-woman show at the end of the first year and handed that in as my first year piece of work and yeah. Yeah.

Jay: Did it get an A

Emma: it got a distinction!

Jay: Oh, amazing. Great. There we go. I love it. 

Emma: It actually did.  Not that that was the point, but it kind of wasn't the point, but I think the coolest thing was like I read it for my roommate, for example, who's been leaving with me for 7 years, and he was like, "Wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop." He's like, "Is this actually how you feel? Like, do you actually feel this?" And I was like, "Yeah, I wouldn't have written it if I didn't." And he was like, "I had no idea that this was how you felt." And this is someone I live with. And so for me who I perceive myself to be this like massive open book and actually I realized I was like wow I think I'm doing a good job of bringing the people that I love along with me on what this feels like and actually I'm not saying nearly enough or explaining it in a way where it makes sense. And so even my parents were just like- couldn't believe it really. Yeah.

Jay: I'm sure they were brought to tears by parts of it. I mean, I was so moved by it and I really hope you do one day make it a production in some capacity because it was so moving and so powerful and it was, Emma, honestly it was what every public figure has ever tried to explain to me about their experience yet put so succinctly, powerfully and meaningfully that anyone could relate to it and I think anyone meaning anyone who's ever felt misunderstood loved for what they have and not who they are. Seen for parts of themselves and not all of themselves. And I really believe it would be such a service to everyone to share it one day in however way you decide to because honestly I was gripped. I was completely captivated. I couldn't put it down. I feel like I'm going to read it again and again and again. It's not something that I think you read once. Not only are you a brilliant writer, but it is so true and honest. And for everyone who's listening and watching, I think the lesson from it for me is that your therapy could turn into something creative that when you shared that with me when we were speaking on the phone, I was so in awe of that that therapy in one to one setting or in whatever way of healing you believe in, if it turns into something you have to put together to communicate to others, that's the revelation. Like the revelation is in that process, not in the listening, telling, sharing, speaking, that that's great and that's a part of it. But if you can go one step ahead

Emma: Truly, I feel this like urgency and like desperation to communicate this specific piece, which is like make art about your experiences. Like the neurosis of being a writer, anyone making anything is like, I don't have anything valuable to say, it's all been said before, this is so self-indulgent, this is so narcissistic, who even wants to hear this? This is bad. I thought all of those thoughts probably most days as I wrote this. But trust me, like whatever you think people know about you or they know about your life or how you feel about it, they don't. And they need you to write poems, write songs, make pictures, write plays. And you don't need to be someone with the title of an artist to be able to do that. You really don't. And in fact, I have to write on my mirror. I have it written on my door, "I am an artist" because I don't think anyone feels like they deserve that title. I've been making films and writing and making art since I was 9 years old. And I don't feel like I deserve that title. And I have to work at it all the time to feel like I have anything that's worthwhile saying. I really understand the struggle. I really really do. But there is something about doing it and like having a physical thing because I think so many of these thoughts and feelings live in our heads and it's not a great place for them to live. They need to come out somewhere and once you can put them somewhere then you're free. Being understood or feeling like you're understood by the people around you has got to be the best feeling in the world. And I think it's what we're looking for when we do so many things, but often that's not the way to find it. And I just- God, yeah. If I honestly- I want to go to every person in the street and be like you need to write a one-person show about your life and then perform it for your friends and family or like you need to like you know paint the thing, write the song, like just do it because it's kind of one of the best most meaningful things I've I've done is trying to make sense of it all. Yeah.

Jay: And I love that you did it for your family. Like that's the part that proves to me when you say the message of make your art and you know you don't need to be a full-time actor or director or movie filmmaker. It's like you actually lived that part and that's what I love about it the most is that you didn't make it for a stage or a movie or a documentary or whatever.

Emma: And honestly first I wrote it for myself. I didn't think I had the guts to read this aloud to anyone. I thought it was just for me and maybe like two other people and performing it for my like- I didn't even invite my family until like two days before because I just didn't think I had the courage. Make art for people you love. Like make beautiful things for people that you love. Just for people that you love. I guess like I had the extraordinary experience of making things for like the world basically from such a young age. And I never made anything that I didn't feel like needed to be shared publicly. And I remember when I made Little Women, I mean, that's such an amazing thing about Louisa May Alcott is that really she wrote those stories for her sisters. And so many people's journeys and paths start because yeah, out of love, they wrote them for just one person. There was a certain point I remember in my life where I was like, "Right, I'm done with university now and now I'm going to just like focus full- what I should be doing is just focusing full-time on being an actress." and you know doing all of that and I had completely missed actually that Emma the academic, Emma the student, Emma the person that needs to needs to constantly be learning things, facilitated my ability to be a famous person and in Hollywood and that without her I actually couldn't do it. I needed- I need to have both and that when one gets stripped away and like even as I explore this in the play as well like even as I have returned to some form of normalcy ordinary life whatever that looks like to me now like I also can't kill her off completely you know my public persona there's parts of me that like still does need those outlets and to do those things too and I'm figuring out what those are but I think that's what's so complicated about being human is it's yes, and not either or. It's we need to be all of ourselves so that we can do the extraordinary things that we want to do. Maybe it's about not leaving parts of ourselves behind like kind of finding a way to keep threading the tapestry of all of it.

Jay: Yeah, I think that's- I mean you've said it so well and I really feel that's what it's been for me. I feel like as humans, we're very good at being like, "Okay, this chapter of my life is over." And we do it because labeling helps, but it's like you went from being a toddler or an infant and then you became, you know, a teen and then a young adult and then an adult and then- So, we have all these labels and it almost feels like we live our life that way of like, okay, I was a student at university. If I went to university and now I have a job and I'm an employee or an entrepreneur, whatever it is. And labels are useful. So I'm not going to say they aren't. But what ends up happening is you start labeling phases of your life, which means now there isn't a "yes and", it's an "either or". So it's like I was an actress, now I'm going to be an academic. And it's like, well, no, I'm an academic and an actress and a whatever else. You know, and and I think that's what it's been for me. It's like I know that the people that know me best will say, "Jay, I love you because we can talk about spirituality. We can talk about business and we can talk about communication, media, art, and I love you because we can do all those three things in one day. And I'm like, yes, I feel so seen. Whereas if someone only said one of those things, I'd feel so limited. And what I've realized is I'm now at a place where I've given myself permission to be all of myself, even if others don't give me permission to be all of those things. Because, yeah. 

Emma: And how amazing to get to that point where I realized for a long time I was pushing for- I need everyone to understand me and I need them to understand these decisions and I need them to understand that I'm all of these things. And I'm like but do you really, Emma? Do you actually really need them to get it or is it enough that you get it? You see it and understand it and you're making it possible and giving yourself permission to do that. And I think once I kind of let go of like, okay, it matters way more that I accept myself than that I spend so much energy and time trying to force other people to see these things about me. And then paradoxically, of course, once you let go, people start getting it which is which is funny.

Jay: Emma, how do you how do you see love

today?

Emma: God, what a great question. How do I see love today? Oh, okay. I think I have an answer for this. How exciting. I was worried there for a moment I was like shit, I have nothing to say. God, I hope I do. Am I not that deep? Yeah. Okay. So, um I think that we don't talk about love nearly enough or I think we need to talk about it so much more because I had such a, not a misunderstanding but I think I had a very limited understanding of it for a long time which was that we see in Disney movies and in Hollywood movies this idea that like falling in love once it's sort of happened to you it's like irreversible, you know like step into this portal that you can't get out of anymore because you've fallen in love. And actually, I think falling in love might be quite easy to do in some ways. That's sort of the easy bit. The hard part is finding someone who actually wants to be in a dance with you and be in some form of partnership with you. And things like, can you argue well, can you be- is the conflict that you have generative? And can you make someone else feel safe? Like, and when I say safe, I don't mean like out of physical danger. I mean like, can you either respond to a text message quickly enough that doesn't send the other person into like a complete free fall and- or not pelt them with so many that they feel completely overwhelmed and flooded. And like that kind of like compatibility and that kind of willingness to be in this like- is this okay for you? Does this feel good to you? This is how it feels for me. And like there's like that constant back and forth and that constant check-in is like a game of um checking in a way of like can you find someone who's willing to be as vulnerable as it necessarily requires I think to like figure out those micro adjustments until you're sort of in some kind of dance with someone else. And that is a very different understanding that I have come to of what love is than I had. I mean like loving someone is so much more complex than the projections that we put on someone or even like just lusting or having some small feeling for someone else. But I just think that we have such a black and white idea about what love is supposed to be. And I wish I'd understood more before I went into battle. I do. I really, really do. What do you think love is, Jay?

Jay: Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. You're flipping this back, Emma. This is about you. It's not about-

Emma: Yeah! This is a conversation. Well, does any of what I've said resonate?

Jay: It does. It does. It resonates a lot.

Emma: am  on the right track, Jay. I need you to tell me.

Jay: I think it resonates a lot. I grew up with a very film naive Disney version of what love was. Like I love that version of love. I love the idea that love was this really romantic, really sweet, writing letters every day kind of love. Like that that's the love I dreamed of and love I thought of as a kid at least. And then, you know, I think I realized that you do all of that with the first person you're with in your teens and you kind of think it's the real thing, but then they're in a mood every night for no reason and you're

just people pleasing and trying to figure out what's going on and you think it's all about making that person happy and so you mold and you bend and, you know, sabotage parts of yourself. And I realized very quickly that that wasn't love. And I think what's really interesting about love now

is that marrying my wife who I've been with now for 12 years and married for nine.

Emma: Wow.

Jay: And so it's the longest time I've ever spent with anyone and also the only person I've been with after I left the monastery. And so there's been a certain chapter of my life that I've been with her for. And I really feel she's taught me more about love for two reasons. The first is she doesn't subscribe to any of the movie Disney versions of Love.

Emma: Wow. 

Jay: At all.

Emma: Oh my god. What education did she have? Where can I get it?

Jay: Yeah. Literally. And the other part is that I think she's the only person I've ever loved enough to be taught by.

Emma: Oh my god.

Jay: Which is like a really interesting part of love that I think's missed. And I feel like love is the humility to feel-. It's humility on both parts because the other person's not actively teaching and you're actively receiving. So it's this really strange dance between- it's almost like if you're dancing. There has to be a humility on both sides because it's not that one person leads and the other person follows. It's the other person's kind of like should we do this? Should we try this? There's a anxiety and a humility in requesting that and the other person gets to choose to go with it or not go and say no we're going to go in this direction and that's a great dance to watch and I feel like, with my wife, she's never directly taught me but she's challenged me in ways that if other people would have I might have left.

Emma: Oh my god, how beautiful.

Jay: And so why am I staying? And then you go okay I'm staying because there's love. And so love is the ability to be taught without teaching and learning without feeling like you're being led or misled. And that for me has been a really beautiful lesson. And if I just said this to my wife out loud right now, she would just laugh because she'd just find it funny. And then she's- Yeah. She also taught me how to love me for who I was and not what I had. Because I think a lot of men go through this, at least men that I'm friends with and that I've spoken to, that we want people to respect us for our success. And rever us for our accomplishments. It's how men have been adored since the beginning of time for going out and getting the food or going out there and winning the battle or conquering a nation. And that's what you were known for. And so my wife's been with me since before my career took off and I had any success. And I think as I gained success, I think my immaturity was to want her to love me for that more. And she never did. She just didn't do it.

Emma: Wow. How amazing.

Jay: And it drove me crazy. And she didn't do it in a rejecting way or in a- it just didn't make a difference to her.

Emma: "This is why I love you."

Jay: And and it took me a long time to wrap my head around that and realize because you know those are the times when you could start liking other people who love you for what you have achieved and what you have built and all the rest of it. And I think I just have so much respect for her that-

Emma: she never gave in on that.

Jay: Yeah. She never gave in and she helped me love myself for who I am. And I think that's the point that I think I would have- if I had met someone else, I would have valued myself for very different reasons. And knowing you're with someone who truly is with you because of who you are and your character and that's what they honor. And and I think that word honor and respect probably the last thing I'd say I think we always say like love is respect and based on respect but-

Emma: I wrote a list of things that I- I tried to be clear with myself about what it is I was really looking for and I really want and one is someone that I can learn from. So it's really interesting that you said learning without teaching, teaching without learning and that kind of reciprocal like I really want to be with someone that I can learn from and I hope that yeah as you say has the humility to be willing to learn from me. But the other thing is I think it's why I'm so obsessed with the musical Hamilton and why so many people have been. Maybe this is- it's so funny that we're on the purpose podcast, but like are you with someone who- 'cause obviously what you have with someone is is wonderful, right? Like what you two share together, but if you can be in service of a vision that you both share or at the very least are you willing to honor and give dignity to the work of the other person and whatever their vision or mission is in this world. That to me seems far more sustainable than anything else. And so I guess my big hope or wish would be that I met someone who feels like what I want to do in the world- Yes, that I'm important, but they also feel that what I'm here to do is important to them, too. And in some way intersects with what they're here to do.

Jay: I couldn't agree more. It's exactly what I was going to say.

Emma: Is it?

Jay: Yeah. That I think the word respect and relationship is thrown around a lot but this is the deepest form of respect where- there's a famous quote that I don't know who said it but there's a- and I would you know you could take the genders out of it now but there's a famous quote that says men marry women hoping they'll never change, and women marry men hoping they can change them and to me wanting someone to never change or wanting to be able to change someone are both signs of disrespect because I think the greatest respect you can have is to respect what this person values in this moment and how that evolves and that's their purpose, their offering, their values. And at no point are you trying to change them. And I've talked about this often where my wife and I- I do this exercise with couples when I'm working with them, but I've also done it in our relationship. And I ask people to rank their top three priorities in order.

Emma: Wow.

Jay: And people do it privately and then they share them.

Emma: Wow.

Jay: And so generally one person will put themselves first, their partner second, and then the kids third. And the other person will put the kids first, the partner second, and themselves third. And the person who put themselves third is always mad at the person who put themselves first because there's this friction of well "wait a minute how can you not put the kids first" or "how can you not put family first" or whatever it may be in your given situation and the other person is like well if I don't put myself first then what can I give to you all and that kind of displays this dichotomy and this belief we have around love means complete sacrifice and love means self-sabotage to some degree or love means putting yourself aside and the reality is actually no my goal is to make sure that you live your purpose and greatest vision of yourself and your purpose is to help me do that. When we both do that, everything's- 

Emma: Then it's poetry.

Jay: 

If you have news to share (pictures, infos, scans...), please send an email to eden@emmawatson-updates.com 

Follow the blog on social media: